The State of Leveling

[Lockonnow]

Every year this Discussion come up about cut down to lvl 20 about old player that only Grin for xp and items their kill this server but this talk.

Let me show you a char sheet i wish to play if it was program it will be a Lvl 7 priest and then Assassin 8 and then Master Alchemist lvl 5 and then Blood magus lvl10 no one could come up about this Idea and no on will play this is couse it is to weak true but this is the True RP spirit and o none can beat that it is the same with My wizard Yanderey no one wil lplay this one couse he is to weak Rogue lvl 3 and wizard lvl 7 and Dagegrspell mage lvl 10 and Archmage lvl 10 . evertime it come up it is not about RP couse you can allways a RP buy a house pick common prc and RP for the love of this game .
I stil wish if we can make Blood Potion that all can drink it anyone so it is not only for the Blood magus for those that have short time of a spell will get a double Duration for spell that have a spell on 6 sec or 1 round/level.

[White]

A bit beside the issue perhaps, but I'd be interested in seeing a catch-up mechanic in addition to whatever other changes would be made to the XP rate. What's a catch-up mechanic? For example, Rested XP, which many MMOs have. For those that are unfamiliar, it essentially means that you accumulate points into a Rested XP pool whenever you're logged off, and upon logging back in, all XP you gain will be multiplied by 2, and all that extra XP will be drafted from your Rested XP pool. Something like that would help in catching up to folks who are close in level, but have more time to play than you do.

[ILLY]

I wonder why I bothered to write anything at all. It's like everything before page 5 has been forgotten and the same questions are being asked that were already suggested solutions for <.<

[Aspect of Sorrow]

A lot of the responses fell outside of the scope of the original post's point.

[edmaster]

I wonder why I bothered to write anything at all. It's like everything before page 5 has been forgotten and the same questions are being asked that were already suggested solutions for <.<

tends to happen a lot on the forums

[GholaMan]

I think i have 6 or so level 30's and another 4 or 5 mid or low epics. And I will say leveling in BG just isn't fun, it is boring, it is tedium, its not a process I particularly enjoy doing despite having done it multiple times.

One of the biggest Issues I can easily identify with leveling in general is the lack of equivalency between zones. Just as an example 90% of zones just are not leveled up in even if they have monsters in them. The reason for that is simple, some areas have a better rate of getting XP and gold, and others have poor rates of XP and gold. Leveling has a different purpose than going out on a loot run once you hit 30, just like an MMO, i know a lot of people hate that comparison but its the same. Max level characters dont go out to dungeons to gain XP they do it for the sweet sweet loot. Its the same for BG, at level 30 the only reason to go out is to get more gold and the potential for some piece of gear that is good.

For pre 30, making more of the zones worth leveling in would help even if for nothing else than variety otherwise people will just spend hours grinding xvarts and wyverns which will at least mitigate how boring leveling is and would actually get people wandering around the server. The other thing that could be implemented that other nwn2 servers in the past was use a rested XP system where RPing would stack up bonus XP that would be cashed in when grinding. Which could make grinding for people who only occasionally do it more rewarding and less of a pain in the ass.

Once you hit the level cap grinding is only for money and gear, but being max level has its own pitfalls mostly because players have little agency without DM supervision. Sometime it feels bureaucratic, you just have to use the forum to record RP or it might as well have never happened, now this wouldn't be so bad if a group of players could you know affect the world without the DM stamp of approval. Since we as a group would feel incentivized to create stories together and post said stories on the forum. Rather than trying to get a DM's attention for a week just to get told to kick rocks or having a DM retcon what you have done.

As it stands you can count the number of things you can affect without DM approval on one hand, while this issue isn't directly related to the leveling experience its an eventuality that should be addressed.

[Rain]

I wonder why I bothered to write anything at all. It's like everything before page 5 has been forgotten and the same questions are being asked that were already suggested solutions for <.<

Don't take it to heart. It's a normal occurrence on these forums.

[Eliasz_Kowalski]

Personally, I think that the very idea of fixing the grind issue by making the grind itself more interesting, fast-paced and better experience in general is fundamentally flawed. Simply because the point of the server is RP and the decisions criticised by OP, in fact, were made to discourage players from mindless grind through levels, like it was with wyverns and resting spots, for example. From what some old players told me, the point was to make players focus on RP and coming up with their stories, not push them towards looking for other levelling loopholes, obviously. But then again, too many players approach the server's environment as a cheap MMO knock-off and play accordingly.

All in all, it's essentially the question of why players feel pushed to grinding levels. Sure, many newcomers don't get how this whole "framework for RP" thing work and just approach the server and its content as any other RPG game with grinding and levelling-up being the only obvious thing to do. But then again, there is also the matter of feeling left out. Whatever adventures the DM staff have to offer are mostly aimed at old-timers and level 30 demigods and even if you, as an average low-level player, are lucky enough to stumble upon some semi-public DM-led event, you'll often feel left out. I mean, I do get how it works for the other side and trying to engage with random players, inexperienced when it comes to pnp experience and most likely never to be seen again, is probably an experience frustrating and unrewarding enough to avoid it altogether. But still.

So yeah, that's a thing, too. Being encouraged to level up quickly and into epic levels to get to see something else than low- to mid-level grind. Even half of this thread is about how to make bored level 30 demigods entertained and most of it is essentially about turning into one quickly to get to the most entertaining part of what the server has to offer. Still, it's not exactly something that I'd expect to be fixed by a team of enthusiasts running the server as it's more of a fundamental game design issue that hits the wall of the server being, well, just that - a bunch of enthusiasts working on it in their free time for a very small and dedicated playerbase. Just thought I'd mention it as a newcomer to this place because it might be not that obvious when you've been around for a decade or so.

[Lambe]

Just want to establish a few points based on my personal observations.

1. Low-Epic levels have the same access to gear, market, trade, and usage-wise. Though correct me if I'm wrong that higher levels have higher chance of finding better loot at higher level dungeons? Thus are able to trade for more gold for better purchasing power?

2. Low/Epic levels have low participation chances together due to level ranges being far apart?

3. Higher levels have access to class skills/feats/abilities

Having stated these, what are the main motivations for levelling? From here I'll use the term 'grinding' as there are other avenues for levelling up other than PVE.

Do you grind due to one of the points I listed above? Do you grind for the action? Or do you find nothing else to do so you set out to grind, then find that it is just as boring? Do you find the variety boring, or the rewards lacking that it forces you into limited number of areas?

If the sole purpose for grinding is to level up to open up your build, then I'll just say you'll get there eventually, perhaps just not as fast as you would like. How fun a levelling pace can be is entirely subjective as seen from the comments for both ends of the spectrum.

Edit: I personally would grind the lower levels to get up to my ideal abilities and build. At higher levels, I find the prospect of loot exciting to grind for.

[DaloLorn]

2 and to a lesser extent 3 are my primary concerns when I'm actively pushing to level.

[The Whistler]

Aaand now Forgotten City is gutted also. Well done.

[blazerules]

From what some old players told me, the point was to make players focus on RP and coming up with their stories, not push them towards looking for other levelling loopholes, obviously.

Regardless of intent if that was the design goal it failed horribly. Which makes sense the team isnt exactly made up of actual game devs. But really such choices wouldnt encourage RP. They'd just make grinding worse and force players to well... look for less painful ways to go about things.

If you want to make something used more often you make it good not the othe thing bad. Especially if you still need the other thing.

If you make grinding awful all you did was make it awful not encourage people to RP. So a net negative result. I just cant see how you could even encourage RP through making grind more awful. Since nothing really changes goals wise.

It'll still be much faster to get XP through killing things.

Do you grind due to one of the points I listed above? Do you grind for the action? Or do you find nothing else to do so you set out to grind, then find that it is just as boring? Do you find the variety boring, or the rewards lacking that it forces you into limited number of areas?

On the limited number of areas.

XP per Hour is a metric I'd say most people use consciously or not. Xvarts, wyverns etc. If it's faster to grind them even when you are way over leveled then it is the optimal way to do things. Think of players like water that take the path of least resistance as they flow.

Part of the issue in my time (2017) was that grinding areas "appropriate " to my level was a fool's errand alone. And most the time I'm grinding when alone because otherwise I'd RP. Enemies being fairly tough meant that even if they gave 70 xp each it just wasnt worth it on an XP per hour basis even when mobs were giving pittance for XP.

All with practically no risk of death that would set me back hours.

So even when we had groups to grind we still stuck to lower level areas to get maximum XP per Hour as the risk and cost was just not worth it in any way, shape or form.

I also quoted RavenCredale, a recent new player.
"It's one of the few places that gives moderately good XP in the north server. But gnolls spawn in quick so you can spend x amount of hours there just killing gnolls or run the place, loot the containers then wait til you can loot them again.

However for me, it's tedious to do. Rping with a few others makes it less of a nightmare but it still ends up threatening to put me to sleep with how dull it can get."


Grind to level because you want to do content with other people and not be left behind. Frankly, it's kinda irrelevant why people grind. Because they always will. I doubt you will ever get to a point in which most people wont try to get to max level. It often means the build is complete, now viable or finally works properly.

Level 30 is a bar to be filled that most will want to fill. Theres certainly a compulsion there.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

If it's perceived that the playerbase majority is in the epics the priority for most is to have their character reach a minimum of that in order to participate in the same world as their counterparts.

[Steve]

If it's perceived that the playerbase majority is in the epics the priority for most is to have their character reach a minimum of that in order to participate in the same world as their counterparts.

One doesn’t need to be the “appropriate” Level to role-play with any other Character or group. Even being vastly different in IC power and experience IS a thing to role-play. If it is true that the only interesting challenge and the only interesting RP is to be had at Level 30, then there is a fundamental problem both with the Server AND the players on it.

Grinding however, yes, there are caps for “appropriate” group leveling. So if it’s not really THE paradigm to slow down leveling intentionally, then the simple REMOVAL of XP throttling in groups based on Level range, is the answer for a more varied experience of Lowbies and Epics adventuring together.

[Young Werther]

If it's perceived that the playerbase majority is in the epics the priority for most is to have their character reach a minimum of that in order to participate in the same world as their counterparts.

One doesn’t need to be the “appropriate” Level to role-play with any other Character or group. Even being vastly different in IC power and experience IS a thing to role-play. If it is true that the only interesting challenge and the only interesting RP is to be had at Level 30, then there is a fundamental problem both with the Server AND the players on it.

Grinding however, yes, there are caps for “appropriate” group leveling. So if it’s not really THE paradigm to slow down leveling intentionally, then the simple REMOVAL of XP throttling in groups based on Level range, is the answer for a more varied experience of Lowbies and Epics adventuring together.

This is a recurring point made. I just don't get why our characters wouldn't be smart enough to want to catch up to the power bloc in pursuit of agendas, fighting imminent dangers, call to glory, ect. Grinding offers that path which can be interpreted IC as training basically. OOC it's such a pain and time investment/sink that gets less and less fun every time you make a go around. Hence slow server death is locked into the current paradigm. It also as the side effect of people not wanting to perma-death because of threat in returning to the spokes of the wheel of grind. I remember people complaining of Saturday cartoon morning villains returning again and again, which I guess is what you get in the stories where good always triumphs now.

At least that's how I've seen it after a couple 30s.