The State of Leveling

[Józef Taktyka]

Players are inclined to more OOC avenues on this server because 90% of the time it is the ONLY payout not because it is the best. I Guarantee you if there were more DM’s AND players constantly adhereing to the world and player decisions in the world (not on this fourm) people would have less complaints about OOC systems and more enthusiasm trying to adhere to rules and regulations against OOC systems.

As if stands now though OOC makes up the majority of BG experiences unless your a campfire RP lover or have an already established presence in the server already.

Since world building here is as slow as RL construction people will often try to find something to pass the time but still offer them improvements for their next chance to RP thus here we are with people grinding millions of gold in the off chance they can use it for some event 2 months down the line.

+1

[Aspect of Sorrow]

My favorite part is how we're still talking about leveling as if that would be the magical solution to player retention and engagement, when it has been pointed out repeatedly that there are more complex and underlying reasons. That the complaint about leveling is just a symptom of that.

The thread is about leveling, the other aspects of the server can and will have their own thread.

[Rinzler]

I have a genuine question:

Why are there such strong opinions on how fast someone completely independent of you gains experience? Does it really impact *your* experience if the process was tuned to make it faster?

I understand that the leveling experience should be a combination of challenging, engaging, and fun. I’m also not suggesting that you should be able to do it in a week or even a month. However, I’ve seen many suggestions such as “It should take a year from 1 - 30” which seems somewhat gatekeepy from people who’ve been here at least half a decade.

[blazerules]

The only issue with that is that the leveling isnt challenging, engaging nor fun. Just long. But that's a dead horse beaten so much the dust is atomized.

Some do find it fun apparently and power to them.

[Zanniej]

You can always compare the leveling speed to me. Everything feels fast compared to me.
It's taken me 9 years (and counting) to get from level 1 to 30... I got to level 21 once! So it's only a matter of time before I reach 30.

But, on the other side there are also people able to do it in a month or two, I believe... Compare yourself to that and you'll always be slow
But if we change the leveling speed, the fast people to compare yourself to, also become faster ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[metaquad4]

I have a genuine question:

Why are there such strong opinions on how fast someone completely independent of you gains experience? Does it really impact *your* experience if the process was tuned to make it faster?

I understand that the leveling experience should be a combination of challenging, engaging, and fun. I’m also not suggesting that you should be able to do it in a week or even a month. However, I’ve seen many suggestions such as “It should take a year from 1 - 30” which seems somewhat gatekeepy from people who’ve been here at least half a decade.

You can do it in under a month ATM; it is just a painful slog of a grind. And it should 100% be able to be done under a month, if not in a couple weeks. Over a month to obtain 30 on a single PC (most people who I've seen take longer are rotating alts constantly) is a pretty disgusting prospect.

And it doesn't impact their experience - but like many other things in life, people seemingly don't like it when others get ahead in a way different to them (the "I suffered so you must suffer too" mentality).

As far as solutions go, I think the following would make the experience more satisfying:
1) Boost RP XP to 50-100 per tick. Basically making RP the go-to way to get XP.
2) Introduce Rested XP: Basically every day, you get X amount in a pool and double XP from all sources. The double XP is taken from that pool. So if you had 1000 XP as your rested pool and you killed something and got 50 XP, you'd get 100 XP and 50 XP would be taken from that 1000 XP pool until it is gone.
3) Remove the post-20 XP limit; give up to 50 XP depending on CR - same as pre-20. Boost the amount of mobs in areas, especially lower-density areas (increases challenge, satisfaction, and XP gains).
4) When cooking is introduced, make some food give a bonus amount of XP% for X amount of time. You are nourished so you are learning better; something like that.

[DaloLorn]

Why are there such strong opinions on how fast someone completely independent of you gains experience? Does it really impact *your* experience if the process was tuned to make it faster?

Yes, very much so. When people start their characters around the same time, become nearly inseparable traveling companions, and one of them outstrips the other so deeply that they can no longer feasibly adventure together because they were able to powerlevel in between adventuring with their companion, that impacts their experience. It particularly impacts the one who's been left in the dust, because there's fewer viable substitutes, and they may be reduced to soloing and RP XP to even begin to catch up ever again. (In my case, I use strategically distributed infusions of staff XP, and I still struggle to stay within a mechanically acceptable distance a lot of the time. Not even "I can contribute to the adventure", just "I'm not tanking anyone's XP by partying up with my PC's friends". Somehow I make it work, but... it shouldn't require you to be on staff to be halfway feasible.)

[Young Werther]

We can just get it over with and have a double XP weekend once a month where everyone logs in to grind together.

I'm not seriously suggesting this btw.

[Rinzler]

Why are there such strong opinions on how fast someone completely independent of you gains experience? Does it really impact *your* experience if the process was tuned to make it faster?

Yes, very much so. When people start their characters around the same time, become nearly inseparable traveling companions, and one of them outstrips the other so deeply that they can no longer feasibly adventure together because they were able to powerlevel in between adventuring with their companion, that impacts their experience.

I do understand your point of view and recognize it sucks when your leveling buddy races ahead of you, but then are you restricting your traveling companion to only play when you’re available to play, affecting *their* experience?

[DaloLorn]

Why are there such strong opinions on how fast someone completely independent of you gains experience? Does it really impact *your* experience if the process was tuned to make it faster?

Yes, very much so. When people start their characters around the same time, become nearly inseparable traveling companions, and one of them outstrips the other so deeply that they can no longer feasibly adventure together because they were able to powerlevel in between adventuring with their companion, that impacts their experience.

I do understand your point of view and recognize it sucks when your leveling buddy races ahead of you, but then are you restricting your traveling companion to only play when you’re available to play, affecting *their* experience?

I wouldn't have to if the question driving their actions was changed from "how long can I manage to grind without throwing up?" to "how do I want to spend my leveling time?"

[metaquad4]

Yes, very much so. When people start their characters around the same time, become nearly inseparable traveling companions, and one of them outstrips the other so deeply that they can no longer feasibly adventure together because they were able to powerlevel in between adventuring with their companion, that impacts their experience.

I do understand your point of view and recognize it sucks when your leveling buddy races ahead of you, but then are you restricting your traveling companion to only play when you’re available to play, affecting *their* experience?

I wouldn't have to if the question driving their actions was changed from "how long can I manage to grind without throwing up?" to "how do I want to spend my leveling time?"

Isn't that more a case of you expecting them to adhere to your mindset in that case?

Also, wouldn't this be mostly solved if the level gap and CR (you don't earn as much XP if the mobs are too high level, for some reason) restrictions were removed?

[Jepop]

I have a genuine question:

Why are there such strong opinions on how fast someone completely independent of you gains experience? Does it really impact *your* experience if the process was tuned to make it faster?

I understand that the leveling experience should be a combination of challenging, engaging, and fun. I’m also not suggesting that you should be able to do it in a week or even a month. However, I’ve seen many suggestions such as “It should take a year from 1 - 30” which seems somewhat gatekeepy from people who’ve been here at least half a decade.

It's the "I suffered so you must suffer as well" mentality.

[DaloLorn]

I do understand your point of view and recognize it sucks when your leveling buddy races ahead of you, but then are you restricting your traveling companion to only play when you’re available to play, affecting *their* experience?

I wouldn't have to if the question driving their actions was changed from "how long can I manage to grind without throwing up?" to "how do I want to spend my leveling time?"

Isn't that more a case of you expecting them to adhere to your mindset in that case?

Not sure I follow, but then again, I don't think I ever did understand why you insisted that all your characters must be level 30 ASAP. You might have told me, but it doesn't seem to have clicked with me enough to remember.

Also, wouldn't this be mostly solved if the level gap and CR (you don't earn as much XP if the mobs are too high level, for some reason) restrictions were removed?

That depends. Some people may play PCs who are perfectly happy putting on an invisibility spell and just leeching off their companions. (I've played a couple myself, but never found it too satisfying. It usually reduces our already tedious PvE content into watching a low-fidelity Marvel movie filmed from all the worst camera angles, often without any of the chatter that might salvage it.) In those cases, yes, removing or loosening those restrictions would work, and if I'm being honest, loosening them by another level or two probably couldn't hurt.

More commonly in my experience (and certainly in my roster), adventuring PCs are adventuring for reasons besides merely getting rich or studying ruins and artifacts. Whether it's to prove their worth, find excitement, or simply help their friends, they're likely to chafe under any party whose success they are utterly incapable of contributing to, as is often the case with a character a dozen or more levels behind the rest of the party.

It's the "I suffered so you must suffer as well" mentality.

After literally half a dozen posts outlining a concrete reason to want to have other characters around one's own level? And arguments across all ten pages of this thread to the effect of "certain forms of RP are rendered impossible if you can go from 1 to 30 in a week"? Like - and for the sake of argument, let's ignore how little epicness there really is in our high-level spells - how can you play an apprentice when you're capable of casting more epic spells than most people (possibly including yourself!) can cast level 9 spells?

Our leveling progression isn't perfect even in context; I'd absolutely agree that epic levels should be less of a slog to get through. (Conversely, I'd say pre-epics need to slow down a little to maintain the same general pace, until we're able to put a stop to powerleveling and increase the base progression across the board.) But there should be a progression. A year's probably too much with our demographics. But what's so terrible about an average PC managing it in six months? Or three, if you insist?

Heck, we could have a system that lets most PCs get from 1 to 30 in six months, lets powerlevelers do it in one month, and it would still be an improvement on both sides of the spectrum. (You can't do six months without serious grinding now, and on the other side of the spectrum, AoS has gone on the record as managing it in nine days.) Three and two, respectively, would be even better, though perhaps somewhat faster on average than most of the team would like to enable. I'm lukewarm on it myself.

[blazerules]

let's ignore how little epicness there really is in our high-level spells - how can you play an apprentice when you're capable of casting more epic spells than most people (possibly including yourself!) can cast level 9 spells?

I thought this was the case because while we are mechanically Epic this is the one time we shouldnt play our sheet as we arent ICly epic (for good reason). Which admittedly adds problems both in the mechanical sense (epic levels are kinda broken to the point pathfinder just doesnt have them and is better for it.) and weird IC issues.

Like if we arent to play our sheet with being Epic I have always been confused about how IC is it that we can use epic spells and what not. But that's not a discussion for this thread

[DaloLorn]

let's ignore how little epicness there really is in our high-level spells - how can you play an apprentice when you're capable of casting more epic spells than most people (possibly including yourself!) can cast level 9 spells?

I thought this was the case because while we are mechanically Epic this is the one time we shouldnt play our sheet as we arent ICly epic (for good reason). Which admittedly adds problems both in the mechanical sense (epic levels are kinda broken to the point pathfinder just doesnt have them and is better for it.) and weird IC issues.

Like if we arent to play our sheet with being Epic I have always been confused about how IC is it that we can use epic spells and what not. But that's not a discussion for this thread

Even with narrative-15, the point stands - apprentices shouldn't be casting level 8 spells right off the bat, either.