Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

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Green Monster
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Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Green Monster »

So I noticed misinformation in the Wiki entry for Two Weapon Fighting, but I don't have the credentials to edit it so I thought I would mention it here and someone who does have a login for the wiki can change it.

According to the wiki,
If you wield a second weapon in your off-hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each.
This is not true. The off-hand being light or not has nothing to do with it, it's the size that matters (insert The Office reference here).

If your off-hand weapon is one or more size categories lower than your character, then you get the penalty reduced by 2. So for example, a human (medium size) gets the penalty reduced if the off-hand is a small or tiny weapon, like a short sword or dagger. But if the off-hand is a rapier ( a medium size light weapon), the penalty is NOT reduced.

This distinction becomes even more important for small characters (halflings and gnomes) because if they have a small weapon in the off-hand they do NOT get the penalty reduced even if the off-hand weapon is light. Their off-hand weapon must be size category TINY (daggers and kukri) to get the reduced penalty, an off-hand short sword does NOT get the reduced penalty for halflings and gnomes.

Note that the size comparison is ONLY between the size category of the character and the size category of the off-hand weapon, NOT between the two weapons. A medium size character can wield two short swords, or a rapier and a short sword, or a greatsword (with Monkey Grip) and a dagger, whatever, as long as the off-hand weapon is small or tiny. This means that halflings and gnomes cannot wield two short swords without the harsher penalties, their off-hand weapon MUST be a dagger or kukri because those are the only two tiny weapons in the game. (idk why the light hammer isn't tiny).

Theoretically, this also means a giant NPC could have a greatsword in the main hand and a longsword in the off-hand and benefit from the reduced penalties, but I can only test with PCs. :D
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Ghost
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Ghost »

It's actually correct. "Light" isn't a weapon size category. It describes what is light for your character. So for a medium character small and tiny weapons are light. For a small character, only tiny weapons are light.
Green Monster
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Green Monster »

Ghost wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 11:35 am It's actually correct. "Light" isn't a weapon size category. It describes what is light for your character. So for a medium character small and tiny weapons are light. For a small character, only tiny weapons are light.
Sorry, that's not accurate. A short sword is still a light weapon for a small character, still gets weapon finesse. The wiki is wrong. Light has nothing to do with twf, it's the size in relation to the character.
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Ghost
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Ghost »

Well, that's actually an inaccuracy on the mechanics of the short sword (or rather on the mechanics of Weapon Finesse). The short sword should not be light for a small character. A short sword is essentially a small longsword.
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Green Monster »

Ghost wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:12 pm Well, that's actually an inaccuracy on the mechanics of the short sword (or rather on the mechanics of Weapon Finesse). The short sword should not be light for a small character. A short sword is essentially a small longsword.

You may be right there, but the way the twf mechanic works is still not reflected by the wiki. If the mechanic cared about "light", then a human could have a rapier in the off hand and get the refuced penalty. The game engine is strictly comparing size category of character to size category of weapon and I think the wiki should accurately reflect that for the sake of clarity for new players.
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by White »

All light weapons are finessable, but not all finessable weapons are light. A rapier isn't a light weapon, and therefore cannot be used in your off-hand without penalty.
Weapon Finesse [General]
Prerequisite

Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special

A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.
Green Monster
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Green Monster »

If no cares, that's fine, but no one is going to convince me that a definition of "light" that is specific to the game (as opposed to the general English dictionary) and changes depending upon your character's race is more clear than the wiki saying

"A halfling or gnome can reduce the penalty for both hands by two if the off-hand weapon is tiny. Any other character may reduce the penalty by two if the off-hand weapon is small or tiny."

But if no one gaf then that's that. Just please don't endlessly debate the word "light" as if esoteric definitions of a word specific to this game is an example of clarity. Especially when the definition of "light" weapon is different for halflings and gnomes and different yet again for purposes of TWF and Finesse. The way it's written you'd think a halfling could get that penalty reduction using two maces, but they cannot.
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Kitunenotsume
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

Weapon Finesse wrote:With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category,
I have added the underlined text to the wiki page for Dual-Wield mechanics to improve clarity to the following:
Dual-Wield wrote:If the off-hand weapon is light for a creature of your size category, the penalties are reduced by 2 each.
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Dual-wield
I have not changed the text of Two Weapon Fighting because that accurately reflects the text ingame, with a link to the definition of a Light weapon.

Further definition of a Light weapon can be located through the link provided by in 2010 in the same line: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Light_weapon

While NWN2 is a medium-centric game, and thus all weapons are made for creatures of medium size, hopefully these points clarify the misunderstanding.
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Green Monster
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Re: Incorrect entry in wiki for two weapon fighting

Unread post by Green Monster »

Kitunenotsume wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:46 pm I have added the underlined text to the wiki page for Dual-Wield mechanics
Thank you.
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