Suggestions/Feedback on Alchemy/Herbalism

[ValerieJean]

Is there any way to make it like the chest script, where each person gets a turn at the node rather than putting it on cooldown for everyone globally? That would seem to solve the original complaint.

Oh yes please.

Selling crafting resources to npcs and throwing crafting resources away are gameplay options that need to be devalued.

But is that not dependent upon the character what they want to do with it? If the worry is being unable to pick the above quote would solve that entirely. Then people can do with the items what their characters would do with them. Harvest or not, sell to NPC/PC merchants or toss out to the bin, or make something with them themselves. All up to them.

So again I think the best course would be the first quoted suggestion.

[Fire Wolf]

I would strongly disagree with adding a timer to harvesting each plant. Collecting plants already consumes tons of time as it is, and currently is very enjoyable. I feel a timer would make it far less fun and add on enough extra time to make harvesting difficult instead of something to reasonably engage with. Plenty of recipes require more than one plant, sometimes up to ten, so a timer would definitely stretch the process out way too much for anyone playing a herbalist.

I'd love it if the wait time between harvests was per person instead of for everyone at once, though. That would be great and I love that suggestion.

And if there's consideration going into removing the xp, or finding another way to grant it, maybe the limit on how many of each type of plant you get per reset could be removed? I've never been affected by the xp being granted since my herbalist is level 30 already, so I'm purely in it for the fun of being a medicine maker.

[Green Monster]

I'd love it if the wait time between harvests was per person instead of for everyone at once, though. That would be great and I love that suggestion.

Yes, I like that idea too.

Also, re: bags, it occurs to me that until bags are ready if you could just change the max stack of plants from 10 to 500, like ammunition. That would help A LOT with the inventory problems of harvesting.

[gedweyignasia]

Also, re: bags, it occurs to me that until bags are ready if you could just change the max stack of plants from 10 to 500, like ammunition. That would help A LOT with the inventory problems of harvesting.

Unfortunately, this would not apply retroactively, so you'd have some that would stack to 10, some that would stack to 500, and they wouldn't combine with each other. It also wouldn't apply retroactively the other way when trying to go back to stacks of 10.

[Green Monster]

Also, re: bags, it occurs to me that until bags are ready if you could just change the max stack of plants from 10 to 500, like ammunition. That would help A LOT with the inventory problems of harvesting.

Unfortunately, this would not apply retroactively, so you'd have some that would stack to 10, some that would stack to 500, and they wouldn't combine with each other. It also wouldn't apply retroactively the other way when trying to go back to stacks of 10.

It would if a script replaced all old "10 stack" items with "500 stack" at login.

[Green Monster]

Is there any way to make it like the chest script, where each person gets a turn at the node rather than putting it on cooldown for everyone globally? That would seem to solve the original complaint.

Oh yes please.

Selling crafting resources to npcs and throwing crafting resources away are gameplay options that need to be devalued.

But is that not dependent upon the character what they want to do with it? If the worry is being unable to pick the above quote would solve that entirely. Then people can do with the items what their characters would do with them. Harvest or not, sell to NPC/PC merchants or toss out to the bin, or make something with them themselves. All up to them.

So again I think the best course would be the first quoted suggestion.

Alright, fair point. But if the cooldown for herbs is per person like chests, then isn't there too much free xp floating around? I mean, right now my two main characters are in their early 20's and at a stage where epic dungeons are too hard and most everything else gives too low xp so getting 1500 xp from running around cloakwood and sharptooth is nice, but I wonder if that's really good for the server.

Maybe the xp reward for the herbs should be based on the DC to harvest them instead of 20 for everything? Also, maybe there should be a per-reset cap on xp from harvesting? But I don't think there should be a cap on the number of herbs you can harvest. If you put in the time, you should get the goods.

[edit] Also, that npc apple farmer should be a normal quest with a 7 day reset. Being able to get 1200 gold and 600 xp off him every server reset is a bit much.... wait... is that a bug?

[DaloLorn]

Also, re: bags, it occurs to me that until bags are ready if you could just change the max stack of plants from 10 to 500, like ammunition. That would help A LOT with the inventory problems of harvesting.

Unfortunately, this would not apply retroactively, so you'd have some that would stack to 10, some that would stack to 500, and they wouldn't combine with each other. It also wouldn't apply retroactively the other way when trying to go back to stacks of 10.

Pretty sure it would if we edited the current base item instead of changing herbs to a different base item. But there's I'd say a 99% chance there are reasons we don't want to change that... and besides, I've felt that the main inventory cost here is the variety, not the quantity of herbs, since each distinct herb type is unable to stack with anything except itself.

[ValerieJean]

Alright, fair point. But if the cooldown for herbs is per person like chests, then isn't there too much free xp floating around? I mean, right now my two main characters are in their early 20's and at a stage where epic dungeons are too hard and most everything else gives too low xp so getting 1500 xp from running around cloakwood and sharptooth is nice, but I wonder if that's really good for the server.

Maybe the xp reward for the herbs should be based on the DC to harvest them instead of 20 for everything? Also, maybe there should be a per-reset cap on xp from harvesting? But I don't think there should be a cap on the number of herbs you can harvest. If you put in the time, you should get the goods.

[edit] Also, that npc apple farmer should be a normal quest with a 7 day reset. Being able to get 1200 gold and 600 xp off him every server reset is a bit much.... wait... is that a bug?

I do not think it would be like chests on the CD rate just the pickable action. Meaning If two people are headed out to pick herbs two people acquire. Harvesting has already always had a CD of time that they can be picked and I do believe there is still a cap of how many times you can pick one. I have not fully verified this because it is sporadic with other people coming through.

Again I am not sure why the XP amount is so problematic. It's a lovely addition and a new way to get a little bit of XP than the usual Quests/Monster Kill/Fish it is just something new and that is wonderful without it being too much as well. 20 is sound to me in what time is taken for it, how much you want is up to you on your time to give to it. Same as all other avenues. In cases this is still less than RPXP generated, and any other means of XP out there unless you are the high end of a party in a grind for XP.

I don't believe a cap is needed really, there is no reason to lock this down so hard on the small playerbase we have right now. It's harming nothing. Honestly it lets people who may not get as much time to play better opportunities as well. For me this brought a lot of positivity even if my heart broke on some other changes. But I am hopeful they may come back even in a different means of access.

As for the apples, this is something else I do not think should be under a quest or capped as I again believe the system caps you anyways. Once more another chance at some XP to lessen the grind for people is a welcome and long needed opportunity.

So yes as you said,

if you put in the time you should get the goods.

[Green Monster]

As for the apples, this is something else I do not think should be under a quest or capped as I again believe the system caps you anyways. Once more another chance at some XP to lessen the grind for people is a welcome and long needed opportunity.

1200 gold and 600 xp (+ about 240 xp for the act of picking all the apples, apple leaves, and pears) every server reset is excessive for spending 1 minute harvesting that orchard in Beregost. Think about it logically: If this apple farmer is paying 200 each for the labor of picking his apples, how much is he selling apples for to make any kind of profit? To whom? No, for reasons of "things not making sense spoils immersion" that cash payout needs to go WAY down.

As for the xp, 600 for 1 minute effort every single server reset is objectively excessive, and besides I suspect that as long as you can keep picking apples you can keep getting rewards because just now I saw someone literally camping it. I now think that instead of every reset it's whatever the cap on the # of apples per day you can pick is. Maybe make it every 24 hours?

[Green Monster]

Also, re: bags, it occurs to me that until bags are ready if you could just change the max stack of plants from 10 to 500, like ammunition. That would help A LOT with the inventory problems of harvesting.

Unfortunately, this would not apply retroactively, so you'd have some that would stack to 10, some that would stack to 500, and they wouldn't combine with each other. It also wouldn't apply retroactively the other way when trying to go back to stacks of 10.

Pretty sure it would if we edited the current base item instead of changing herbs to a different base item. But there's I'd say a 99% chance there are reasons we don't want to change that... and besides, I've felt that the main inventory cost here is the variety, not the quantity of herbs, since each distinct herb type is unable to stack with anything except itself.

Obviously the ideal solution is bags. I don't know why this server doesn't have them, Sigil does and everything is fine. Maybe something to do with the vastly higher number of players here? Idk, regardless, if bags are not an option, what about virtual crafting materials?

When you click on an herb and succeed in your roll, instead of getting a physical item added to inventory you get a virtual item that is "added to your herb pouch" (and you must have an herb pouch in your inventory). You can use the herb pouch to target yourself to bring up a dialog listing the herbs you have, in alphabetical order. Then when you're crafting the crafting station checks this virtual inventory database file instead of your character's actual inventory.

You can also use the herb pouch to create a token representing one stack of any number of your virtual herbs that you can then sell to another player. That player can then use that token's special power the herb pouch to add that number of ingredients to their own virtual inventory.

[Ashenie]

Hello there,

Just for information, there are talks about experience gain, especially in tiering the experience reward following difficulty challenge. Removing it completely has not been considered so far, moving it to herbal preparation has not been either. Making the collectibles infinite would lead to other issues, with unlimited availability of herbs, in which we don't have a system for conservation of herbs, or treatment. Likewise, we don't have yet any system that would let you know if your node is good enough, not eaten by worms, or blighted... etc. So having infinite herbs would translate into having infinite preparations, and infinite consumables, and infinite ressources found in nature. It's currently not perfect at all, but the limitation also stands for this narrative aspect (not only, but also).

So any of those suggestion would have further impacts than just changing the experience income and would imply a redesign in the system to further rebalance some of these aspects, with means we don't really have yet, or that would need heavy development.

Mind you, this is not impossible for a future plan, but would in any case need to be considered thoughtfully to answer every kind of potential issues, and concerns. I do not wish to hinder anyone from suggesting anything, I find great that you have some idea and that you share your experence. The work that has been put off so far just on herbs represents several hundred of hours of work, and a lot more in just talking and trying to find suitable consensus. There will be more to come.

For potions, some potions are natural vials, documented in books to be prefered by herbalists. I found those great for all nature-inclined characters, or character with any reason to favor natural vials, or herbalists themselves. Removing them would be removing an opportunity for them too.

As for the cooldown, it's in the script itself. There is no way to change it without changing the script. The cooldown per node also means that an herb freshly picked can't be picked immediately again. This is already made easier by the fact that you can find a lot of nodes everywhere. So you can just move further to collect herbs from another node.

Bags are ideas that we discuss too, and through which means they can be safely implemented without risking technical issues.

I hope these informations will help direct further your suggestions. If anything is unclear, feel absolutely free to reach me,

I hope this helps

Cheers,

Ashenie

[Green Monster]

[color=#FFBFFF

Bags are ideas that we discuss too, and through which means they can be safely implemented without risking technical issues.

I hope these informations will help direct further your suggestions. If anything is unclear, feel absolutely free to reach me,

I hope this helps

Cheers,

Ashenie
[/color]

So my vision of virtual ingredients would be something like this:


Add "unique power, unlimited uses" to the herb pouch.
When you click on an herb to harvest and succeed the roll, it gets added to your virtual inventory of herbs instead of your real inventory. (Should be some kind of cap on # of each type, not sure what)
When crafting, the crafting station will check your virtual inventory as well as your actual one (more on that later).

Edit: Note that the virtual inventory is assigned to the character, not the herb pouch itself. Giving your pouch to another player or selling it or dropping it or whatever won't affect anything. The pouch is the interface through which you access your virtual herb inventory, not a container. If you click on an herb in the wild and don't have a pouch on your person, you should get a server message telling you to go buy an herb pouch.


Using the Herb Pouch targeting YOURSELF brings up a dialog:



"What would you like to do?"
1. List herbs in alphabetical order
2. Exit

If you choose the list, if you click on one of the herbs, it will ask you
"What would you like to do?"
1. Remove this herb from pouch
2. Exit

If you "remove the herb from pouch", you get added to your inventory a number of that physical herb equal to the number in your pouch, and that is removed from your virtual inventory. This is primarily to allow you to sell them to other players, crafting won't require the physical herb If the virtual one is in your pouch. The crafting station will check both physical and virtual inventories so that if you happen to have just purchased some herbs from someone else you don't have to add them to your pouch first before crafting, that would be silly.

Using the Herb Pouch targeting a stack of HERBS brings up a dialog:
"What would you like to do?
1. Add these herbs to the herb pouch
2. Exit

Adding the herbs to the herb pouch deletes them from your physical inventory and adds them to your virtual inventory; freeing up your inventory and allowing you to craft later.

[edit again] I realize that this would completely remove the weight factor in harvesting, but I think that's a good thing. It would make it more inclusive. As someone with 2 low str dex builds and 2 high str tank builds I can't help but notice higher str = more gold because so much of the sellable treasure is heavy. It would be nice for everyone to have a win in the case of looting herbs.

Also, when you remove herbs from your pouch to have them as physical ingredients, the max stack should be 500, not 10. Maybe that should also be tha cap on # of each kind in virtual inventory?

[DaloLorn]

Your vision is not 100% accurate to what's currently being discussed internally, but you got the gist of it. If all goes well, we'll probably have a prototype ready to go live next week, though there's no telling how long it'll be before there's actually a patch to deploy it in.

[Kitunenotsume]

Since apparently we've moved from the Coming Soon thread regarding feedback:

The Northern Farmlands seems to have only 1 wheat but 2 milk buckets.
Considering that wheat has a higher per-reset cap than milk, would it be possible to get an extra set of Crops somewhere in that farmlands area?

(some sort of veggies would also be neat, maybe in that little farm by the bridge.)

(I am also amused that everyone else is concerned about the herbs and alchemy, and I'm over here going "fooooood?")

Unfortunately, this would not apply retroactively, so you'd have some that would stack to 10, some that would stack to 500, and they wouldn't combine with each other. It also wouldn't apply retroactively the other way when trying to go back to stacks of 10.

They can, if the base item in the 2das is edited to have a higher stack size.
That does, however, rely on the base-item not being used by other things.

[Green Monster]

Oh, btw, regarding the wait on incidental materials like water and the respawn times on herbs:

If the purpose is to limit the number of crafted items that can be made, then just do that. Suggest just limit the number any one person can do in a day. Like, have a cap on how many items each character can make and have that reset every 6 hours just like chests. When you reach the cap, further crafting attempts do nothing (no loss of materials but nothing crafted) and you get a server message that says "You're pretty worn out from all the work you've done. Perhaps you need to take a break for a bit. Crafting resets in 360 seconds."

So, say for example the cap is 10 consumables (JUST and example, idk what would be appropriate). Albert the Alchemist crafts one item. The timer starts and his craft counter goes down to 9. He goes out and kills some kobolds for 30 minutes. Then he crafts another thing. The timer re-sets to 6 hours and his counter goes down to 8. Every time he crafts, his counter goes down by one and his timer re-sets. When his counter reaches 0, the timer stops resetting and just counts down 6 hours. At the end of which time the counter resets to 10 and the whole process can start again. If the timer ever reaches zero and the counter still had some counters left, the counter just re-sets to 10. It doesn't get 10 added to the remaining counters.