New Class Kit for Swashbuckler based upon the Shield of Blades class feature from PnP D&D 3.5
Requirements:
Dexterity 15
Two-Weapon Fighting (regular or ranger)
Loses:
Swashbuckler Dodge and all of its subsequent improvements are disabled
Gains: The following abilities are gained at the given kit progression levels, regardless of whether the character would normally qualify for them or not:
Shield of Blades 4: Two Weapon Defense
Shield of Blades 9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (ranger version)
Shield of Blades 14: Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Shield of Blades 19: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (ranger version)
Shield of Blades 24: Greater Two-Weapon Defense
Based on the Shield of Blade class feature from PnP
The typical swashbuckler is best suited to fighting a single foe. Some, however, practice using a pair of light weapons to fend off attacks from all around them. The shield of blades alternative class feature is designed for swashbucklers who fight with two weapons. Though it requires a full attack action to use the ability, the AC bonus applies against all attackers (even invisible ones), unlike the dodge bonus gained by the traditional swashbuckling style.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the dodge bonus class feature (or its improvements at 10th, 15th, and 20th level).
Benefit: Beginning at 5th level, you become adept at defending yourself when wielding a pair of light weapons. You gain a +2 shield bonus to your AC whenever you attack with at least two light weapons during your turn. (Despite the name of this class feature, you can use any light weapon to gain the benefit, even unarmed strikes or natural weapons.) This AC bonus lasts until the start of your next turn. This is an extraordinary ability.
This bonus increases by 1 for every five levels beyond 5th (+3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level). You lose this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
However, if we just granted +2 ac when dual wielding starting at level 5as in PnP, anyone who took only 5 levels would have an instant improvement with no loss.
Last edited by Green Monster on Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to compare swashbuckler 2/10 shield of blades to level 30 pure swashbuckler. Wouldn't you normally compare it to the level 12 swashbuckler to see pros and cons? If you do that though, you would see that there are no cons at all. The cons would only come into play if you decide to pursue pure swashbuckler path without resorting to multiclassing. If that is the intention, I think this implementation is not too op if you add one more requirement - you can not multiclass.
I agree with Goat_gurl. 11 levels in Shield of Blades would get you the same AC as 11 levels in Swashbuckler, after which you'd be free to multiclass anywhere else. It might be okay if it were a single-class-only option, but with multiclassing in play, it's a straight upgrade over the original class.
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I see goat girls point and will re-think it when I have time. However, I would like to point out that accusing someone of disingenuity is a bit rude.
The Dictionary wrote:
disingenuity | NCpedia. Type of Speech: noun. Definition: unfair treatment or underhand dealing; or more commonly used today - disingenuous.
I wasn't underhanded. It was just 4:30 a.m. My initial thought was that the things granted by the kit would be every five levels of swash just like the dodge it replaces (and like the PnP kit), but then I realized that that's not how kits work here. So then I thought of dividing it up across 10 levels that can occur at any point in the swash progression, but I see now that I'm awake that gives too much too quickly and takes away nothing.
Goat_gurl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:11 amcalling me names when you don't know me, for which you 100% owe me an apology, but making a valid point vis-a-vis the power level for a multiclass
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:05 am
I agree with Goat_gurl. 11 levels in Shield of Blades would get you the same AC as 11 levels in Swashbuckler, after which you'd be free to multiclass anywhere else. It might be okay if it were a single-class-only option, but with multiclassing in play, it's a straight upgrade over the original class.
So my first thought at 4:30 am was that the kit would take away Swashbuckler dodge and for every 2 points of Swashbuckler Dodge the character would have normally been given, the kit gives 1 off-hand attack and 1 shield ac when using twf. So TWF at 5, TWD at 10, ITWF at 15, ITWD at 20, etc, but kits don't work like that here. They start and stop at any point in the class progression. They're not tied to the base classes' level, so that's why I changed while typing it to what you read and then went to bed. But can they be tied to base class progression? See new, re=edited original post.
This is pretty much how other kits work too, TBH - while you are technically capable of disabling kit progression, because Rasael, there is no practical reason why you would ever want to disable any kit currently available on BG.
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As an overall concept, I like this idea/suggestion. In practice, however, I see several things to consider, which I've outlined below.
For those with a short attention span, or who doesn't want to read a semi-wall of text, here's the:
Summary / TL;DR
I do like the idea in concept. It has a lot of merit, and plays to some of the strengths of the Swashbuckler class (more critical hits equals a weaker opponent).
However, due to the consideration outlined in the segments below, and especially the other options already available to achieve a similar result (also below), I don't see anything attractive about the Shield of Blades kit, outside of a pure-class-fantasy. What it loses, and the hoops it has to go through to not hamper itself (defensively, offensively, or both), makes the very late purely mechanical benefits lack-luster.
I'd very much like to see something like it added to the server, but my initial impression is that it needs more work.
1. Investment
Swashbuckler is a very front-loaded class. Anything beyond level 19 is mainly just fluff, and rarely is the class taken higher than level 14 due to having those 5 extra levels to put into PrCs. Sure there's 3 bonus feats in the epics, but all base classes get (close to) that amount too when taken to level 30.
Additionally Swashbuckler is a class, which relies heavily on Dexterity in the first place to gain both Attack Bonus and Armor Class. While, like with Ranger, the Shield of Blades kit would allow a Strength-focused dual wield build, it will still need to invest into Dexterity for the sake of AC when limited to only Light Armor.
The class already wants to invest into Intelligence for damage, due to Insightful Strike and Combat Insight. Meaning investment into Strength will actually be counter-productive, as those points could instead have been put into Intelligence or Dexterity.
2. Overall AC
Swashbuckler 30 gets +6 to Dodge AC, where Shield of Blades replaces that with +3 to Shield AC. With the Dodge AC cap of 20, the Shield of Blades will have a higher theoretical ceiling, but will be wholly reliant upon buffs from spells to get there. Even with Combat Expertise (+5) and Fight Defensively (+2) a it's only +7 Dodge AC (11 with Boots). This at the cost of -9 to AB, where the Swashbuckler gets only 1 less Dodge AC without any cost to AB.
While the maximum cap is theoretically higher, in practice it is much more difficult to reach, let alone be on par with Swashbuckler, without significant investment into UMD, external buffs from spells, or trade-offs on AB.
Of course a consideration can be made to use Athkatlan Triparite to gain +4 Dodge AC, and +4 Damage. This pushes the Dodge AC (with Boots) up to 15, though with the same -9 penalty to AB. Similarly Sembian Fencing can be considered, gaining +8 AB, +2 Damage, and +4 Dexterity (non-stacking). This retains the Dodge AC (with Boots) at 11, though the penalty to AB is mitigated down to only a -1 penalty.
Both of those options have the cost of losing 3 Main-Hand Attacks, which with Shield of Blades capping at Greater Two-Weapon Fighting puts the total number of attacks down from 9 to 6 (3 Main-Hand and 3 Off-Hand). Both options also have a feeling of being mandatory to not lose AC or severely hamper AB, thus pigeon-holing the kit into specific feats.
Additionally the AC from Greater Two-Weapon Defense is lost when disarmed, which is not a concern the Swashbuckler normally has to contend with.
Of course the goal shouldn't be to cap out on 20 Dodge AC, however, it is where most classes limited to Light or no armor will make up the difference. Especially when also limited to not using a shield and not getting the up to +4 Shield Enhancement Bonus without buffs.
3. Offenses
This is where the Shield of Blades draws its actual power from, getting 3 Off-Hand attacks, each of which can be a critical hit, and thus trigger both Weakening and Wounding Critical, which is great!
Those 3 Off-Hand attacks are also made with a higher total AB, making them more likely to hit versus the lower 3 Main-Hand Attacks. Even when using Athkatlan Triparite or Sembian Fencing it is still a net gain, since the total number of attacks will then remain at 6 (3 Main-Hand and 3 Off-Hand) all at high AB.
It does come at the cost of -2 AB, however, due to Dual Wielding. AB could already be a potential issue for the kit, since neither Swashbuckler, nor Shield of Blades gain any inherent bonuses to AB. Especially being a melee class, and thus more susceptible to taking damage, maintaining a good AC to AB ratio is important. Here the Dual-Wielding skews that slightly for the worse, even before the consideration to AB modulus outlined in the AC segment above.
4. Other options
If the goal is to make a Dual-Wield Swashbuckler more easily accessible, the Shield of Blades falls short in comparison to existing options, which all get the Weakening and Wounding Critical milestone feats too.
Swashbuckler 24 + Fighter 6 This still gets Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, have higher AC for less hassle (albeit a lower theoretical AC ceiling), at the cost of 1 Bonus Feat and 1 Reflex Save.
Swashbuckler 24 + Divine Champion 6 Is similar to the Fighter variant, though it replaces the +1 Reflex Save with a +3 Universal Save, at the cost of 2 total Bonus Feats.
Swashbuckler 19 + Dread Pirate 6 + Tempest 5 Also gets Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, same total Saves as Shield of Blades, can invest 3 feats into Greater Two-Weapon Defense (rather than Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for the other variants), thus achieving the same theoretical AC ceiling as Shield of Blades. Additionally it mitigates the Dual-Wielding AB penalty through Tempest.
Edit:
Added to the AC segment why Dodge AC is important to the Swashbuckler class.
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As an overall concept, I like this idea/suggestion. In practice, however, I see several things to consider, which I've outlined below.
For those with a short attention span, or who doesn't want to read a semi-wall of text, here's the:
Summary / TL;DR
I do like the idea in concept. It has a lot of merit, and plays to some of the strengths of the Swashbuckler class (more critical hits equals a weaker opponent).
However, due to the consideration outlined in the segments below, and especially the other options already available to achieve a similar result (also below), I don't see anything attractive about the Shield of Blades kit, outside of a pure-class-fantasy. What it loses, and the hoops it has to go through to not hamper itself (defensively, offensively, or both), makes the very late purely mechanical benefits lack-luster.
I'd very much like to see something like it added to the server, but my initial impression is that it needs more work.
1. Investment
Swashbuckler is a very front-loaded class. Anything beyond level 19 is mainly just fluff, and rarely is the class taken higher than level 14 due to having those 5 extra levels to put into PrCs. Sure there's 3 bonus feats in the epics, but all base classes get (close to) that amount too when taken to level 30.
Additionally Swashbuckler is a class, which relies heavily on Dexterity in the first place to gain both Attack Bonus and Armor Class. While, like with Ranger, the Shield of Blades kit would allow a Strength-focused dual wield build, it will still need to invest into Dexterity for the sake of AC when limited to only Light Armor.
The class already wants to invest into Intelligence for damage, due to Insightful Strike and Combat Insight. Meaning investment into Strength will actually be counter-productive, as those points could instead have been put into Intelligence or Dexterity.
2. Overall AC
Swashbuckler 30 gets +6 to Dodge AC, where Shield of Blades replaces that with +3 to Shield AC. With the Dodge AC cap of 20, the Shield of Blades will have a higher theoretical ceiling, but will be wholly reliant upon buffs from spells to get there. Even with Combat Expertise (+5) and Fight Defensively (+2) a it's only +7 Dodge AC (11 with Boots). This at the cost of -9 to AB, where the Swashbuckler gets only 1 less Dodge AC without any cost to AB.
While the maximum cap is theoretically higher, in practice it is much more difficult to reach, let alone be on par with Swashbuckler, without significant investment into UMD, external buffs from spells, or trade-offs on AB.
Of course a consideration can be made to use Athkatlan Triparite to gain +4 Dodge AC, and +4 Damage. This pushes the Dodge AC (with Boots) up to 15, though with the same -9 penalty to AB. Similarly Sembian Fencing can be considered, gaining +8 AB, +2 Damage, and +4 Dexterity (non-stacking). This retains the Dodge AC (with Boots) at 11, though the penalty to AB is mitigated down to only a -1 penalty.
Both of those options have the cost of losing 3 Main-Hand Attacks, which with Shield of Blades capping at Greater Two-Weapon Fighting puts the total number of attacks down from 9 to 6 (3 Main-Hand and 3 Off-Hand). Both options also have a feeling of being mandatory to not lose AC or severely hamper AB, thus pigeon-holing the kit into specific feats.
Additionally the AC from Greater Two-Weapon Defense is lost when disarmed, which is not a concern the Swashbuckler normally has to contend with.
Of course the goal shouldn't be to cap out on 20 Dodge AC, however, it is where most classes limited to Light or no armor will make up the difference. Especially when also limited to not using a shield and not getting the up to +4 Shield Enhancement Bonus without buffs.
3. Offenses
This is where the Shield of Blades draws its actual power from, getting 3 Off-Hand attacks, each of which can be a critical hit, and thus trigger both Weakening and Wounding Critical, which is great!
Those 3 Off-Hand attacks are also made with a higher total AB, making them more likely to hit versus the lower 3 Main-Hand Attacks. Even when using Athkatlan Triparite or Sembian Fencing it is still a net gain, since the total number of attacks will then remain at 6 (3 Main-Hand and 3 Off-Hand) all at high AB.
It does come at the cost of -2 AB, however, due to Dual Wielding. AB could already be a potential issue for the kit, since neither Swashbuckler, nor Shield of Blades gain any inherent bonuses to AB. Especially being a melee class, and thus more susceptible to taking damage, maintaining a good AC to AB ratio is important. Here the Dual-Wielding skews that slightly for the worse, even before the consideration to AB modulus outlined in the AC segment above.
4. Other options
If the goal is to make a Dual-Wield Swashbuckler more easily accessible, the Shield of Blades falls short in comparison to existing options, which all get the Weakening and Wounding Critical milestone feats too.
Swashbuckler 24 + Fighter 6 This still gets Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, have higher AC for less hassle (albeit a lower theoretical AC ceiling), at the cost of 1 Bonus Feat and 1 Reflex Save.
Swashbuckler 24 + Divine Champion 6 Is similar to the Fighter variant, though it replaces the +1 Reflex Save with a +3 Universal Save, at the cost of 2 total Bonus Feats.
Swashbuckler 19 + Dread Pirate 6 + Tempest 5 Also gets Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, same total Saves as Shield of Blades, can invest 3 feats into Greater Two-Weapon Defense (rather than Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for the other variants), thus achieving the same theoretical AC ceiling as Shield of Blades. Additionally it mitigates the Dual-Wielding AB penalty through Tempest.
Edit:
Added to the AC segment why Dodge AC is important to the Swashbuckler class.
Great points, but I would like to rebutt 2 of them:
Re Other ways to build a twf swash:
I know. But taking those other classes to help with the TWF & TWD feats isn't an option for a rogue/swash, who needs all the skill points they can get and really cannot afford the massive loss of skill points from fighter, divine champion, or tempest. Dread Pirate is a good option, but not everyone wants to / is capable of role-playing a sea-faring background. Ranger is also a good choice, but both ranger and fighter present very obnoxious multi-class xp penalties for most races. The idea is to provide an easier path to TWF Swash that works well regardless of build/race. I am not saying my idea doesn't need work, it probably does, but I am saying that there is merit in providing TWF feats within the Swash class itself.
Re AC:
Ah, but you forget, good sir, that the +6 dodge AC from max Swashbuckler dodge is ONLY versus the character's current opponent. Like the "Dodge" feat. Versus every mob flanking the swash while they are focused on fighting the one opponent, vanilla swash gets no help. That's why the Shield of Blades build is different. It trades single-opponent defense for offense and multi-opponent defense.
This is pretty much how other kits work too, TBH - while you are technically capable of disabling kit progression, because Rasael, there is no practical reason why you would ever want to disable any kit currently available on BG.
Well, it's not Ranger ITWF & GTWF. It's just ITWF and GTWF. You can make a 6 dex gold dwarf ranger, choose twf style, then get regular twf from lvl 1 Dread Pirate, then get level 21 ranger and use ptwf in full plate. Only the initial TWF feat is different. The others just add attacks to whatever you're using.
Tbh, I would actually like to see a new, different version of TWF that only works if in light or no armor AND the off-hand weapon is tiny, to promote the Rennaisance Italian version of rapier and dagger, but I would like to see that ONLY if light hammers were changed from small to tiny. Currently there is no bludgeoning damage tiny weapon and there are monsters immune to everything but bludgeon. I mean, why aren't light hammers tiny? They're 1d4 just like the other tiny weapons.
Green Monster wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:13 pm
Well, it's not Ranger ITWF & GTWF. It's just ITWF and GTWF. You can make a 6 dex gold dwarf ranger, choose twf style, then get regular twf from lvl 1 Dread Pirate, then get level 21 ranger and use ptwf in full plate. Only the initial TWF feat is different. The others just add attacks to whatever you're using.
I was wrong about this, just tested in Jegs. I think the above was the case in NWN1, but apparently not in NWN2.
