Restructure or Status Quo

[Louvaine]

You, know, that makes me wonder what do DMs want out of their part in the community. Personally, I'm not a fan of limiting them too much. The current code of conduct seems completely fine to me. Then again, abiding by the rules you proposed with duration and type of events, BloodRiot, would definitely serve me during my time as DM.

I'm not sure if halting DM requests is the way to go. Like it or not, that's the easiest and most obvious way to impact the server on scale grander than your character. Perhaps if players had more autonomy, yes. But they don't. Events sprung on you can be very out of your control as a player and I feel like while they have a massive potential for storytelling, they aren't necessary so often focused on impacting the setting or status quo.

All that being said, I would really like to hear what expectations and desires DMs have out of their DMing. We can talk about DM as a role, or as a group, in circles. Nothing will come out of it until they speak up and I'm willing to bet they have their hands full with their current duties.

I was initially inspired by Winterborne to become a DM when he made a suggestion to take matters into your own hands and apply to be a DM. I'm just going to leave that suggestion here as well.

I'm not staff and never have been but one of the best ways to help out with DM's being inactive, or to help out with DM team being overloaded or inactive is to apply to the team! Go for it. <3

[Almarea90]

Ok so my two cents on the proposed suggestions:

I suggest three ideas to restructure the server:
1) Two types of Dms- Administrative DM's and actual DM's.
Admin DM's - You can have a group of people that do the unpleasant 'office work' part of the DM team. They are the ones that focuses on the behind the scenes stuff. They can be the complaint department and also hand out punishments for rule breakers. Organizing and filtering DM requests, responding to the requests that do not need events. You can have a Admin DM that has a big spreadsheet listing all the factions and related players cross referenced with the activities they have completed and pending activities. The Admin DM's can provide support to the Actual DM's and act as dispatch for DM events that require an actual event. May not sound like fun to you but there are a lot of us that are cut out for this sort of thing.
Actual DM's – Have the fun job of just focusing on running events and helping players with in game stuff.
This is already happening to a degree but the way its happening is muddy and unclear. Create the specif roles for each DM and then that DM needs to stay in their lane.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea and even though very valid concerns have been raised in the previous posts I think this is something that should be trialled in order to see how it pans out.

2) Players given more freedom to control positions of power- This is what will bring players back to BGTSCC. Make it possible for a player to become a duke or a member of the Conclave. You do not need to make it easy for them, but at least make it possible. You want to set up a Flaming Fist faction- start it. It works for Candlekeep it should work for anything else. If you are a terrible flaming fist guard and people complain- you will get fired or arrested. If you become a Duke of Baldurs Gate then suddenly stop playing – you will be deposed. If the DM's decide you are not doing a satisfactory job they will find an IC reason to try and remove you. Will this hurt your feelings?

First of all I would like to clarify that this is not the case for Candlekeep in any shape or form. The guide is the highest position attainable by players and we have freedom in pretty much all administrative day to day tasks (upholding or refusing research requests, induction of new people, disciplinary actions, etc..). However any decisions can be overridden by the NPC, which is pretty much never the case for day to day activities but if I start burning books in the courtyard I can expect ulraunt to give me the boot. Also big decisions such as changes or exceptions in laws, permanent banishment of individuals or factions and use of the guild resources must pass through the NPC.

That said I am not necessarily opposed to this, but on two necessary conditions. First any power role for player should be decided exclusively by players and not awarded by DM in order to avoid situations where someone becomes duke after six months of private back and forth with the DM team while in game nobody knows who they are. Second there must be an NPC presence to keep the weights in balance in order to account for the world reactions. To make Candlekeep's example, let's say we open the First Reader and Keeper of the tomes positions to players then the players get rid of all books and turn the library into barracks to burn and conquer the surrounding lands. 1) we must first of all account for all those NPC avowed who would rebel and whether we like it or not they are more than the players 2) I can think of at least 2 important lore characters who would drop by and thoroughly kick our butts.

3) Current staff, have to loosen up the control and let players take control. If players are to be given positions of power this will be a must. Let the ooc drama happen if it does. Its not going to turn into some wild west pvp hellscape. There will be a whole DM Admin department created and organized for it. Stop looking at all conflict simply as future OOC Drama and more like RP opportunities. Let the players try crazy (#2) – give them a chance to succeed – that's what dice are for!
-You can 'PVP out' if you want but that doesnt mean you can do what every you want. You are not automatically losing but you are backing down.
-Keep RP as the priority, but allow players to add an element of danger to each other. If it gets abused, complain. The abuser will be dealt with – not a big change here.

PvP and conflict likely needs a separate discourse. I agree that PvP rules could use a revamp but I cannot stress enough that a scenario where non combatant/those with weak builds get ganked at all corners because they lose the right to back out and simply are the easy pick.

-Balance the new player freedoms by handing out more permastrikes.

May I ask you to elaborate a bit more on this point? What in your opinion should grant a permastrike?

-Stop using PG13 as an excuse.

As above, I would like to hear a bit more about this point.

-Stop using Lore as an excuse – let in game player achievements, trump canon.

I am all for that as long as the player agency remains confined to the things mundane and cosmological/divine balance remains strictly lore canon. This server is forgotten realms and if we start messing around with the rules of existence it stops being forgotten realms. I can see kings and dukes changing every other months because this can be the way of politics, for gods I just can't. I must also add that this would be detrimental for new players as now a newcomer rolling a Tormtar for example can just drop in and learn the lay of the land as they go. If we touch cosmology they either learn a whole new system or suddenly find out that torm has been replaced by John Doe who returned the tablets and ascended to godhood.

-Give us more to do than leveling and grinding. If we can free up Actual DM's to get in game that would be amazing.

I absolutely agree on that. Although DM presence is nice this can easily be achieved through in game systems such as professions and crafting. Herbalism was definitely a step in the right direction.

[zhazz]

I'm not even sure a restructure is needed.

Though more/better tools for the DMs to utilize is certainly a thing, which is sorely needed.

Having given this quite a bit of thought after the topic popped up again this time, I've arrived at something of a suggestion, which is rooted in a system utilized for another game around the same time NWN2 was launched: The Ahn'Qiraj War Effort from World of Warcraft.

For those not familiar with it, it was a several month-long event in-game, where players could give all sorts of trade-related items to an NPC to further that faction's efforts towards preparing for war against a looming threat. Leathers, skins, hides, ores, ingots, herbs, and cloth could be donated. And it required no oversight, since everything was tracked on the server's database. Eventually the event completed, and access to the new content was granted to the players.

So how about a similar system here?

Idea
A system whereby a DM can place a special "Effort NPC", which can be configured to accept various resources and/or skill rolls, which cumulatively work towards a shared goal for a group or the entire server. It is persisted through server resets via the server database, and any DM can access the tracking data at any time by interacting with the Effort NPC.

The Effort NPC can only be interacted with a set number of times per day / reset per character, thus preventing a mass-effort by individuals. Though of course multiple characters can work in unison to drastically lower the time required to hit the target goals.

Is it a perfect system? No. But I think it could be a step in a less hands-on experience for the DMs when needing to track some kind of shared progress project.


Scenario 1: A group of people want to build a guild hall

1. Request is made on the forums, or in-game to an online DM
2. A DM goes to the desired guild hall location
3. Puts down the special Effort NPC
4. Configures the Effort NPC to only be interact-able for carries of a Token
   • Effort NPC hands out one or more Master Tokens to the DM
   • Master Tokens are traded by the DM to the guild members
   • Master Token allows the creation of a Helper Token, which allows the bearer to interact with the Effort NPC, but not create more tokens
   • Both the Master Tokens and the Helper Tokens are keyed to the one specific Effort NPC
5. Configures the Effort NPC to accept specific resources
   • Wood*
   • Ingots*
   • Ore*
6. Configures the Effort NPC to accept skill rolls from
   • Lore: Architecture & Engineering
   • Craft: Metalwork
   • Craft: Engineering
   • Craft: Carving & Sculpting
7. Configures the Effort NPC to have target goals for total resources and total cumulative skill rolls
   • E.g. 4,000 total resources (5 people each delivering a stack of 10 items each reset would be 80 resets / ~27 days)
   • 10,000 cumulative total skill rolls (5 people each rolling an average of 30 each reset would be ~67 resets / ~23 days)
8. Uses the "Save" option on the Effort NPC, which
   • Stores the Effort NPC, along with its location and all its settings in the server database
   • Creates related tracking tables in the server database for the Effort NPC to use
   • Allows the Effort NPC to be auto-added to the area in the same location after a server restart, by reading from the server database

*: Would need to implement gathering of these (if not already present)

This way an aspiring guild can get started on their plans for a guild hall, without needing to amass millions of gold up-front. Instead they can gradually contribute to the construction of their guild hall in a meaningful way outside of grinding for gold. They can also involve other characters to help out with the gathering of resources and skill rolls (through the Helper Token). Of course a "throw gold at the thing" is still an option at any point, possibly reduced by in-game effort, which is now tracked entirely in-game.


Scenario 2: Dukes decide a foothold should be established in the Fields of the Dead

1. A DM goes to the desired foothold location
2. Puts down the special Effort NPC
3. Configures the Effort NPC to be interact-able by everyone
4. Configures the Effort NPC to accept specific resources
5. Configures the Effort NPC to accept specific skill rolls
6. Configures the Effort NPC to have target goals for total resources and total cumulative skill rolls
7. Uses the "Save" option on the Effort NPC

Now the entire server can work together for some common goal, without a DM ever being present, and without anything needing to be documented on the forums. Any DM can log onto the server, and access the Effort NPC to get a status on how things are progressing; possibly with a "top contributors" section, which the Dukes might use for special recognition and acknowledgements.


Idea expansion
One option can be to allow an Effort NPC to accept actual items, such as armors and weapons. These could then be treated as being smelted down or repurposed for whatever effort is going on. Effectively producing a "sink" for unwanted items, and trading gold gains from selling the items for progress towards a project.

A related option could allow characters to expend some of the tracked armors and weapons to upgrade them via a related profession/craft, thus increasing the total progress, but lowering the progress towards raw resources.

Another option can be to allow gold to be added directly to an Effort NPC, which then becomes a "gold sink".

Idea concerns
Most of the progress may end up being just a series of skill rolls and deposits of resources, without any actual role-play involved. For many things in PnP, however, progress towards a long-term goal is measured through skill rolls as the primary driver, and role-play being supportive. That support typically being in the form of bringing in NPCs to help out (which in this case will get replaced by actual PCs). A potential issue for sure, but not one I'd consider all that bad, given the benefits of such a system.

Coding it will of course take some effort. While I am a software developer myself, I'll readily admit that I have no experience with the NWN2 toolset and scripting, and thus no sense of the scope of work to make something like this happen. All I've heard from those who do work with the NWN2 toolset and scripting, is that it's a hot mess and often requires more crowbar and hammer than gentle nudging. Can it be done? I'm confident it can, but it will require time and effort.

[Louvaine]

I really like your idea, Zhazz. I could also see how progress into certain milestones could perhaps be pushed by a DM event or some achievement that would grant a token to allow two donations or skill checks, or whatever it ends up being, per reset.

Building a guild hall or an outpost suddenly becomes more interactive, yer remains just as simple. More importantly, the silly rule of 4 months activity is smoothly addressed in two major ways. The time can be reduced by activity (doesn't have have to be a month, but maybe it could be less than 4 if players are active enough to gain those points with 'Effort NPC') and the waiting doesn't seem so arbitrary as there is something to do.

Could this system be gamed and abused? Sure. Was the same thing said about Outpost system? Sure. Was Outpost system abused? No. Is finding ways to game rules of server and system part of the game? Absolutely.

Lastly, I remember talks of faction systems with NPCs. That could play a big part in any potential system. Imagine hiring some player groups who are on better terms with Frost Giants to mine rocks from their mountains. Better yet, imagine doing some tasks for a frost giant wizard or lizardman shaman in order to improve your standing with them. All of the above could use what Zhazz so elegantly called 'Effort NPC'. After all, I don't see any reason for this NPC to not be an IC persona. Mudd is muddy on IC/OOC as is. We don't need another.

[Tekill]

That said I am not necessarily opposed to this, but on two necessary conditions. First any power role for player should be decided exclusively by players and not awarded by DM in order to avoid situations where someone becomes duke after six months of private back and forth with the DM team while in game nobody knows who they are. Second there must be an NPC presence to keep the weights in balance in order to account for the world reactions. To make Candlekeep's example, let's say we open the First Reader and Keeper of the tomes positions to players then the players get rid of all books and turn the library into barracks to burn and conquer the surrounding lands. 1) we must first of all account for all those NPC avowed who would rebel and whether we like it or not they are more than the players 2) I can think of at least 2 important lore characters who would drop by and thoroughly kick our butts.

I accept your terms. I would also add that the player elected to a high position – needs to make arrangements for any long term periods away from that role.

“Balance the new player freedoms by handing out more permastrikes” - May I ask you to elaborate a bit more on this point? What in your opinion should grant a permastrike?

I was trying to sneak this one in without anyone really noticing. I believe players need more consequences for their actions. This should be in the hands of the DM's discretion, but basically Permastrikes need need to be enforced a bit more if you are doing something risky and die as a result. On the Rise of Neverwinter they even have Permastrike events. If you die during CERTAIN events and are not raised...Boosh! Perma!

As above, I would like to hear a bit more about this point - “Stop using Lore as an excuse – let in game player achievements, trump canon.”

I think the lore is vital. But there are times when what happens 'in game' is just better. I would have to take it example per example basis. Hullack made a good example earlier in this thread. But lets say my orc creates the perfect plan for Uruk Lurra to conquer and loot Candlekeep – why should he not be given the chance, and more than that, she should he be prevented from succeeding, even if he only hold Candlekeep for half a day. If no is to be the answer, I just hope its not because Candlekeep was never razed by orcs and so never can be.

@ zhazz
If there is nobody around to create such a mechanic, we could maybe find a way to donate items to DM's.
Maybe we bank/horde items and then when a dm is around we give it all to them. Then we make a forum post listing what was donated. Dms then track Forum lists. I was actually doing this with my orc. He already has a bunch of crap saved up and has posted on the forums about some of these items being donated to Uruk Lurra...to support its growth (as the master race).

[Almarea90]

Eh when it comes to guilds conflict before the DM consent one must first and foremost gather the other party's consent to go ahead with that. There is one important thing to consider: if the DM team greenlights the attempt then they must give the chance to everyone to do it and unless the guild involved is focused on warfare this may become taxing in the long run.

To follow up on the example of your orc and Candlekeep, even if he keeps it for half a day depending on the damage he does he can potentially destroy RL years of recordkeeping that the players built. To this add that if other factions decide to follow the example and succeed what's even the point of doing what we do if it gets destroyed every other day? It is true the players will likely have the chance to defend the guild but, I can only speak for myself here but I'm fairly sure others share this stance, if I play the character I play it's because I enjoy playing a scholar not an improvised general who has to rally an army periodically.
That of course comes with limitation. We have to stick to neutrality and we must keep our guards within our walls.

And this reasoning imho is valid for all conflict situations. It is one of the two: either both parties enjoy the idea, in which case the DM team should encourage and support the RP with as less red tape as possible or one of the parties doesn't. If the latter applies, shoving it down their throat is going to end very poorly for both parties and the DM team.

[Tekill]

To follow up on the example of your orc and Candlekeep, even if he keeps it for half a day depending on the damage he does he can potentially destroy RL years of recordkeeping that the players built. To this add that if other factions decide to follow the example and succeed what's even the point of doing what we do if it gets destroyed every other day?

I think you are pointing out that - if it happens once, it can happen every day. It will become a monotonous routine, ransacking Candlekeep every day for both the ransackers and those being ransacked. How many times can you slaughter the same librarians, over and over again.

But the reality of life (in a fantasy setting) should be, that when there are orcs around, you better protect your valuables.
If candlekeep has stuff my orc wants or my orc decides it hates you. He will try to attack and kill you every day until he is stopped.
He will try to raid you. If he is successful, he will wait until you have nice stuff again, then try to raid again. Rinse repeat. My orc becomes a warlord. Other orcs flock to him. He then moves on to Beregost. Further successes- he sets his eyes on Baldurs Gate...eventually the one true master race rises and takes its place as rulers of The Sword Coast!!!

On the other hand can I assume that you may also be indicating that you enjoy the ooc protection you have in the knowledge you will never be allowed to be attacked?

What I am saying is that I think it would be more realistic for there to be a middle ground. You may not want to become a general. But if you throw a rock from Candlekeep you will likely hit at least one, more than willing to protect Candlekeep.

Maybe that general sees the rise of the orcs as a threat. Maybe that general decides to preemptively eradicate the vermin infestation before they do something stupid like Invading Candlekeep.

Edit (I did some grammar and spelling corrections too): It is realistic that the threat should be real. But also that it should not be a cake walk. I think the players need to feel that risk, as well as to be able to cause a threat to others, even if it is fairly unlikely that threat does not materialize into world domination. Forgotten Realms is a world where if you let your guard down, you basically let the orcs in. We should simulate that threat in this server.

[Ghost]

To follow up on the example of your orc and Candlekeep, even if he keeps it for half a day depending on the damage he does he can potentially destroy RL years of recordkeeping that the players built. To this add that if other factions decide to follow the example and succeed what's even the point of doing what we do if it gets destroyed every other day?

I think you are pointing out that - if it happens once, it can happen every day. It will become a monotonous routine, ransacking Candlekeep every day for both the ransackers and those being ransacked. How many times can you slaughter the same librarians, over and over again.

But the reality of life (in a fantasy setting) should be, that when there are orcs around, you better protect your valuables.
If candlekeep has stuff my orc wants or my orc decides it hates you. He will try to attack and kill you every day until he is stopped.
He will try to raid you. If he is successful, he will wait until you have nice stuff again, then try to raid again. Rinse repeat. My orc becomes a warlord. Other orcs flock to him. He then moves on to Beregost. Further successes- he sets his eyes on Baldurs Gate...eventually the one true master race rises and takes its place as rulers of The Sword Coast!!!

On the other hand can I assume that you may also be indicating that you enjoy the ooc protection you have in the knowledge you will never be allowed to be attacked?

What I am saying is that I think it would be more realistic for there to be a middle ground. You may not want to become a general. But if you throw a rock from Candlekeep you will likely hit at least one, more than willing to protect Candlekeep.

Maybe that general sees the rise of the orcs as a threat. Maybe that general decides to preemptively eradicate the vermin infestation before they do something stupid like Invading Candlekeep.

Edit (I did some grammar and spelling corrections too): It is realistic that the threat should be real. But also that it should not be a cake walk. I think the players need to feel that risk, as well as to be able to cause a threat to others, even if it is fairly unlikely that threat does not materialize into world domination. Forgotten Realms is a world where if you let your guard down, you basically let the orcs in. We should simulate that threat in this server.

If you want to talk about realism, you should actually talk about realistic examples. A lone orc is going to get absolutely destroyed by the defenders of Candlekeep. Candlekeep is one of the best defended places in all of Faerûn, both by the Watchers who patrol its ground, by Miirym and many of the most powerful mages in the world who deeply value Candlekeep's purpose.

And that is even before considering the defenses that First Reader Tethtoril has upon himself that he doesn't even know about:

Now, is that using "lore as a bludgeon to stifle RP"? No. It is presenting the setting. It isn't any more stifling of RP than us telling you that you can't play a jedi.

Realism as a concept is setting-dependent. The Western Heartlands are dangerous to many. But Candlekeep is one of the safest places on Toril. It is realistic that your orc, should he attempt to attack Candlekeep, would fail. The chance of him coming up with a perfect plan to do so, as you presented, is just not plausible. Even with Gruumsh' direct divine involvement, that would be a difficult task, given what is realistic in the setting.

So if you want to talk about what is realistic, you first need to recognise what it means.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Sembia was better equipped and skilled when they made their attempt.
The First parked siege equipment outside of CKs walls with intent.
These things happened in BGTSCC, and there were consequences in both occasions.

[Rinzler]

I agree with BR that there should be a log that tracks when and where a player or guild has been involved in a DM plot. That ensures that no one particular entity is getting an abnormal amount of attention, but more importantly it helps highlight any particular groups or regions that have been consistently neglected.

Since we have people here asking for specific examples of restructure vs. status quo, it has been suggested countless times that Sshamath is not conducive to drow roleplay. I know the Underdark is never a priority and not to divert into a “woe is me” Underdark tangent, but it’s painfully obvious that Lolth RP is by far the most appealing form of Underdark RP.

Yet for whatever reason we maintain a city that clearly the staff doesn’t care about (see the attention Sshamath got during Time of Troubles) in addition to most players not caring about who might otherwise would if they could do proper Lolth RP.

[Ghost]

I agree with BR that there should be a log that tracks when and where a player or guild has been involved in a DM plot. That ensures that no one particular entity is getting an abnormal amount of attention, but more importantly it helps highlight any particular groups or regions that have been consistently neglected.

Since we have people here asking for specific examples of restructure vs. status quo, it has been suggested countless times that Sshamath is not conducive to drow roleplay. I know the Underdark is never a priority and not to divert into a “woe is me” Underdark tangent, but it’s painfully obvious that Lolth RP is by far the most appealing form of Underdark RP.

Yet for whatever reason we maintain a city that clearly the staff doesn’t care about (see the attention Sshamath got during Time of Troubles) in addition to most players not caring about who might otherwise would if they could do proper Lolth RP.

Attention, DM or player, happens where it's attracted. I suggest looking at for example how selhan managed to attract attention to Roaringshore after it was kind of dead for several years.

Speaking from my own personal opinion, I find Sshamath a much more interesting drow city than any of the lolthite ones. But I can't exactly drop events on people who aren't even there. I can't schedule events there either, without some expectation that people will show up, or have even the most remote idea of what kind of events they'd even want to see.

If you want an area or a group on the server receive DM attention, first make the RP work without it. That is always the case. Everywhere. For everyone.

And please cease this insinuation that the DM team is wilfully favoring one demographic over another. It does you no favours.

[Steve]

If you want an area or a group on the server receive DM attention, first make the RP work without it. That is always the case. Everywhere. For everyone.

I would ask for a clear “how much RP is enough” qualification. THAT I think is the unclear issue for Players.

Does one need X IG hours RPing? Plus X number of Forum posts? X number of PCs involved to warrant a response? X amount of “others” involved IC to make it worth attention?

For example, there a very helpful and clear reqs for guilds, getting a private guild page, for getting a private house, etc.

But what I think is lacking is some clear reqs for “what it takes” for players to make Events happen.

That said, I’m also aware and sensitive to the small amount of current/active DMs, and I know it’s not good to “demand” more than is possible to manage, more than is fun.

Still, it would be exceptionally helpful for players to k so what is required of them, so they can feel empowered and confident they are doing the Right Thing, doing what DMs need of the player base to do.

Cheers.

[Ghost]

Introduce a system so that DM attention becomes a numbers game? I don't think that is going to work.

If you were a DM, what would make you want to DM for someone? Or DM in a particular location? DM about a particular theme?

[Rinzler]

I agree with BR that there should be a log that tracks when and where a player or guild has been involved in a DM plot. That ensures that no one particular entity is getting an abnormal amount of attention, but more importantly it helps highlight any particular groups or regions that have been consistently neglected.

Since we have people here asking for specific examples of restructure vs. status quo, it has been suggested countless times that Sshamath is not conducive to drow roleplay. I know the Underdark is never a priority and not to divert into a “woe is me” Underdark tangent, but it’s painfully obvious that Lolth RP is by far the most appealing form of Underdark RP.

Yet for whatever reason we maintain a city that clearly the staff doesn’t care about (see the attention Sshamath got during Time of Troubles) in addition to most players not caring about who might otherwise would if they could do proper Lolth RP.

Attention, DM or player, happens where it's attracted. I suggest looking at for example how selhan managed to attract attention to Roaringshore after it was kind of dead for several years.

Speaking from my own personal opinion, I find Sshamath a much more interesting drow city than any of the lolthite ones. But I can't exactly drop events on people who aren't even there. I can't schedule events there either, without some expectation that people will show up, or have even the most remote idea of what kind of events they'd even want to see.

If you want an area or a group on the server receive DM attention, first make the RP work without it. That is always the case. Everywhere. For everyone.

And please cease this insinuation that the DM team is wilfully favoring one demographic over another. It does you no favours.

Hi Ghost,

I did not intend to sound combative, but a few things from your post that I disagree with.

1. I did not say anywhere in my post that DMs favor one group over another. All I said from my experience, the staff tends to neglect Sshamath. Take ToT as an example, a city that revolves around magic and is ruled by mages received zero attention during a timeline where magic ceased to function. Literally not a word from any of the conclave members, no deity RP, not a DM forum post encouraging any type of non-deity RP, nothing. It was frustrating standing around watching our spells fail and having no IC feedback from any type of NPC while knowing gods were visiting the surface.

2. I encourage you to go ask DM Ink for his experience dealing with Underdark players when he randomly dropped an event on Bregan and House Selmiyeritar a few months ago while we were standing around Mist Lake. It started out as something simple as following some rats from Mist Lake into the Myconid Circles and we jumped all over it. In fact, we probably annoyed him a bit for the amount we tried to push the plot forward. It didn't matter what the plot was, we just wanted something to do that felt like we were being recognized as part of the player base and making an impact on the setting.

3. There is an Underdark plot that I wanted to pursue that is in line with lore and in exactly the timeline that I requested. Essentially the response I received was "You're welcome to try but we can give you no guidance." I understand not giving away the recipe for success (nor do I want it), but not all of us are lore experts either, and a little bit of feedback and/or encouragement would have been welcome. This plot again is low-hanging fruit, backed by lore, in Sshamath, and in our timeline, yet it felt like I was being annoying for even asking.

4. I can't speak for everyone, but I can assure you I try hard to push RP in the Underdark without DM attention.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

How many primary UDers have applied for DMing the Underdark from that group?