Restructure or Status Quo

[BloodRiot]

Attention, DM or player, happens where it's attracted. I suggest looking at for example how selhan managed to attract attention to Roaringshore after it was kind of dead for several years.

Speaking from my own personal opinion, I find Sshamath a much more interesting drow city than any of the lolthite ones. But I can't exactly drop events on people who aren't even there. I can't schedule events there either, without some expectation that people will show up, or have even the most remote idea of what kind of events they'd even want to see.

If you want an area or a group on the server receive DM attention, first make the RP work without it. That is always the case. Everywhere. For everyone.

And please cease this insinuation that the DM team is wilfully favoring one demographic over another. It does you no favours.

I will give the benefit of the doubt they are not doing it willfully. But the results speak for themselves. I recently had the Ink event just before he retired. Before that, the only other event I was a part of was the Rockrun event you threw. Do the math on how many bluemoons it takes for me to see an event as a UDer.


On sshamath... It is a matter of X begetting more X. The reason you claim there is no one in Sshamath is the same reason why players don't often convene there. Because no one IS there. There is nothing to do there on a normal day. In the absence of Story/DM activity, players are drawn to PVE activities and PC to PC RP, all of which have better venues than Sshamath such as Mist lake (to a point) and much more lately in Soubar.

DMs require players to make forum requests, sign it in triplicate using the blood of a sacrificed Zerros and keep pinging for response if they haven't heard back in 5 business days. As players its hard to feel motivated to do that. Because we aren't gonna sit on our thumbs waiting for that response. Whereas as Ink proved jsut before his retirement, he found us of bregan and selmy just chilling in Mist Lake and jumped us with a totally random event we didn't expect, we didn't ask for, and loved every minute of it.

Not saying you should do this specifically, but if tomorrow you pull some random story about Lolthites attempting a hostile takeover of Sshamath to turn it into another menzo style city, even if it fails, the fact that something big and interesting is happening there would make soubar empty for the duration. because player go where the excitement is. And it's one thing DMs should try to provoke more, that excitement for adventure, not this forgotten realms rendition of Papers Please!

This is a dance and it takes two sides to properly do it.

So, I'm sorry but this is why I think DMs should just get off the "by request" MO and just start prowling the scattered player base wherever they are any given day and just throw a random event. Adventures, dungeon crawls, anything we could be doing at a PnP table. What D&D is all about.

[DaloLorn]

How many primary UDers have applied for DMing the Underdark from that group?

It's generally hard for a UD DM to be raised from the UD population. Pretty much everyone interacts with everyone else somehow, so trying to DM for UDers needs you to have little to no playerside presence down there if you want to maintain the same standards as are expected of surface DMs with regards to separating themselves from playerside affairs. Any dedicated UDer trying to DM down there would surely invite accusations of favoritism; it already happens too often to DMs operating on the surface, who have more space, more hubs, and more players to divide their attention between.

Even back when I was a DM, I didn't dare go down there... and that was when I had a much lighter footprint, playing a near-nobody. Now I'm a faction leader on one PC, and allegedly a faction leader on another PC (though that faction is pretty much dead, and the PC just about shelved). Back then, I knew basically nobody outside the Eilistraeens; now I have good relations with basically every UDer I could possibly expect to DM for.

... Of course, considering the massive disparity between my UD and surface rosters, there is the question of whether I qualify as a "primary UDer"...

[Steve]

Introduce a system so that DM attention becomes a numbers game? I don't think that is going to work.

If you were a DM, what would make you want to DM for someone? Or DM in a particular location? DM about a particular theme?

This is a very interesting question DG, and I'm happy to answer it. I hope it will suffice for you.

If I were a DM on BGTSCC—as I have been in the past as well as HDM (you may remember old-timer!)—when a player, any player, came to me asking for my help, I would be there to give it to them. Somehow. If that wasn't my perpetual attitude, I wouldn't continue to DM. I am of the opinion and attitude that my Role as a DM is to help players. That was how it was in the past—as my record should show—and how or my reasoning for doing it in the first place.

Also, as a DM—as my record should show again—when players made an effort, I sought them out and helped them make it FUN. Take the Whistling Wanderess Flute of Many campaign, as an example. I stand by that experience!!!

As for location, I have zero preferences. I think I have the skills to DM an adventure for the Underdark, the Surface, any custom location. I love the Canon Lore of the Forgotten Realms, but I'm not shy to add something custom to the story building between players and a DM.

And as for themes, the only theme I am not interested in is Elves!! lol, just kidding. The one serious theme I am not interested in and would be hard-pressed to support, is ERP or love themes. That said, I am not opposed to setting up a ceremony location IG, and let the players make the most of it. My Theme preference is Adventure with a capital 'A', but I also greatly support long term intrigue and world-bending events. I love a long form of campaign, and I believe my love comes from what I consider a typical table top experience.

I'm not naive in realizing that a online server can and never will be a PnP table top experience. But one can seek to emulate a vibe, for sure.

Cheers.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

[...]

It's touted UD benefits UD the most, people that have a clear understanding of the lore would probably have to shelve their player characters in order to accommodate which is what I had to do with Vithsiris when I rejoined the team. Not a small sacrifice by any means but at least it can start nudging an unmoved boulder. Only a handful of surface primaries historically have done well in the UD from a long term perspective, Winter and especially Golem come to mind, others have poked and prodded with varying success then flatlined in their activity altogether. The major movers from a player side were Irritana Sshamath, Israe'anna, Zau'afin,and the brief existence of Dev'lin until Bregan could reestablish itself many years later and mostly through player initiative than DM involvement - but the thought is you only need two or three shakers and movers with an amicable UD primary staffside to work out the details with the team for its enablement.

[Ghost]

So, I'm sorry but this is why I think DMs should just get off the "by request" MO and just start prowling the scattered player base wherever they are any given day and just throw a random event. Adventures, dungeon crawls, anything we could be doing at a PnP table. What D&D is all about.

If you think it is that simple and easy, I invite you to apply.

From my personal experience, 90% of the random events I have done over the years have been reacted to with very little RP. They become effectively hack-and-slash events. Fancy grinding. And people complaining about buffs running out while RP is going on. It is very disheartening and discouraging for me as a DM to try my best at storytelling when people don't seem to actually want the story - just different mobs to hit.

I still do random events! But mostly I do random events now that are entirely non-combat and instead can lead to follow-ups where there is combat. In fact, a lot of my plots over the years have been started like that. Where I didn't even have a plan for a plot, but threw out a hook and see who would bite, and then if someone did, I would form a plot.

But random combat events is in almost all cases, for me personally, brain melting.

[Tanlaus]

So, I'm sorry but this is why I think DMs should just get off the "by request" MO and just start prowling the scattered player base wherever they are any given day and just throw a random event. Adventures, dungeon crawls, anything we could be doing at a PnP table. What D&D is all about.

If you think it is that simple and easy, I invite you to apply.

From my personal experience, 90% of the random events I have done over the years have been reacted to with very little RP. They become effectively hack-and-slash events. Fancy grinding. And people complaining about buffs running out while RP is going on. It is very disheartening and discouraging for me as a DM to try my best at storytelling when people don't seem to actually want the story - just different mobs to hit.

I still do random events! But mostly I do random events now that are entirely non-combat and instead can lead to follow-ups where there is combat. In fact, a lot of my plots over the years have been started like that. Where I didn't even have a plan for a plot, but threw out a hook and see who would bite, and then if someone did, I would form a plot.

But random combat events is in almost all cases, for me personally, brain melting.

Not to negate your experience but mine, as a player, has been quite the opposite. Some of the most fun I've had in this game, both on the surface and in the UD, was random DM drive bys that brought the world to life for a short while. Sometimes it was in a dungeon, sometimes it was just a merchant piping up for some RP. Either way the experience felt more like a PnP session than normal PW game play.

Yes, I think there will be players who complain about pretty much any and everything, and those can just be avoided. But I'd encourage more random fly bys, even just for a short time without some overarching plot attached, to stimulate player engagement and break up some of the stagnation that is naturally part of a PW experience.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Hidden: show

So, I'm sorry but this is why I think DMs should just get off the "by request" MO and just start prowling the scattered player base wherever they are any given day and just throw a random event. Adventures, dungeon crawls, anything we could be doing at a PnP table. What D&D is all about.

If you think it is that simple and easy, I invite you to apply.

From my personal experience, 90% of the random events I have done over the years have been reacted to with very little RP. They become effectively hack-and-slash events. Fancy grinding. And people complaining about buffs running out while RP is going on. It is very disheartening and discouraging for me as a DM to try my best at storytelling when people don't seem to actually want the story - just different mobs to hit.

I still do random events! But mostly I do random events now that are entirely non-combat and instead can lead to follow-ups where there is combat. In fact, a lot of my plots over the years have been started like that. Where I didn't even have a plan for a plot, but threw out a hook and see who would bite, and then if someone did, I would form a plot.

But random combat events is in almost all cases, for me personally, brain melting.

Not to negate your experience but mine, as a player, has been quite the opposite. Some of the most fun I've had in this game, both on the surface and in the UD, was random DM drive bys that brought the world to life for a short while. Sometimes it was in a dungeon, sometimes it was just a merchant piping up for some RP. Either way the experience felt more like a PnP session than normal PW game play.

Yes, I think there will be players who complain about pretty much any and everything, and those can just be avoided. But I'd encourage more random fly bys, even just for a short time without some overarching plot attached, to stimulate player engagement and break up some of the stagnation that is naturally part of a PW experience.

I don't want to de-rail this thread too much, but in response to the "random event" idea, I both love and hate it. Some of the best content I've had was where a DM did a random event. And some of the absolute worst content I've had have been random events. The key is for the DM to be able to read the crowd, and not just "Oh, here's people, I'll do an event." I've had really good RP going that was interrupted completely by DM intervention.

All in all, I'm in favor of random (or "fly-by") events, as long as the DM is adding to the RP, rather than interrupting the RP.

[BloodRiot]

Hidden: show

If you think it is that simple and easy, I invite you to apply.

From my personal experience, 90% of the random events I have done over the years have been reacted to with very little RP. They become effectively hack-and-slash events. Fancy grinding. And people complaining about buffs running out while RP is going on. It is very disheartening and discouraging for me as a DM to try my best at storytelling when people don't seem to actually want the story - just different mobs to hit.

I still do random events! But mostly I do random events now that are entirely non-combat and instead can lead to follow-ups where there is combat. In fact, a lot of my plots over the years have been started like that. Where I didn't even have a plan for a plot, but threw out a hook and see who would bite, and then if someone did, I would form a plot.

But random combat events is in almost all cases, for me personally, brain melting.

I don't think it's simple, but I also do not think it has to be that complicated either. I don't really want to be a DM, nor do I think I'd be particularly good at it. But that doesn't take away from my observations and experiences as a player.

I've been a part of good and bad events on this and other servers. Dalelands for instance mostly did what Tanlaus above described as Drive bys to introduce plots that are happening in the background. Then players can both wait out more developments or take initiative in seeking the plots out. I ended up defeating a 2 year old baddie that no one was actively pursuing, because I got introduced to him in a drive by event. He was then also presented as an obstacle to a private goal I was pursuing. I did the detective work to figure out where it was, how to defeat it, etc, and I had a lot of fun doing this and the DM wrapped up one of his many threads.

Similarly, here in BGTSCC, Ink's plot with us just before his retirement started with a drive by. His impromptu event was enjoyed thoroughly by all players and he as a DM alike. The action was nicely paced, giving chance for both RP, combat, investigation and the stakes and urgency grew as we drew to the conclusion. Also very importantly, we all had fun, and by Ink's own words, he did too.

Events devolve into what those involved make it out to be. The important part above was not that we had more than just combat, but that whatever did end up happening was fun for all involved. That was what you didn't mention in your 90% random event turning into combat only events. Did they have fun? You seemed to not particularly enjoy it if they didn't either then its up to you and them to ask why did you steer the events that direction. Why it ended up where it did. If they did in fact have fun event though you didn't, I'm sorry that for you, as a DM is not the most rewarding experience, but your primary goal was achieved, your players got a good time out of it and that's the most important thing and a good thing too

[Tanlaus]

Hidden: show

If you think it is that simple and easy, I invite you to apply.

From my personal experience, 90% of the random events I have done over the years have been reacted to with very little RP. They become effectively hack-and-slash events. Fancy grinding. And people complaining about buffs running out while RP is going on. It is very disheartening and discouraging for me as a DM to try my best at storytelling when people don't seem to actually want the story - just different mobs to hit.

I still do random events! But mostly I do random events now that are entirely non-combat and instead can lead to follow-ups where there is combat. In fact, a lot of my plots over the years have been started like that. Where I didn't even have a plan for a plot, but threw out a hook and see who would bite, and then if someone did, I would form a plot.

But random combat events is in almost all cases, for me personally, brain melting.

Not to negate your experience but mine, as a player, has been quite the opposite. Some of the most fun I've had in this game, both on the surface and in the UD, was random DM drive bys that brought the world to life for a short while. Sometimes it was in a dungeon, sometimes it was just a merchant piping up for some RP. Either way the experience felt more like a PnP session than normal PW game play.

Yes, I think there will be players who complain about pretty much any and everything, and those can just be avoided. But I'd encourage more random fly bys, even just for a short time without some overarching plot attached, to stimulate player engagement and break up some of the stagnation that is naturally part of a PW experience.

I don't want to de-rail this thread too much, but in response to the "random event" idea, I both love and hate it. Some of the best content I've had was where a DM did a random event. And some of the absolute worst content I've had have been random events. The key is for the DM to be able to read the crowd, and not just "Oh, here's people, I'll do an event." I've had really good RP going that was interrupted completely by DM intervention.

All in all, I'm in favor of random (or "fly-by") events, as long as the DM is adding to the RP, rather than interrupting the RP.

I mean you’re basically on the opposite side of the coin from Ghost. He was talking about players ruining drop in and you’re talking about DMs ruining RP by ill conceived drop ins. Both can be issues of course.

Just from a practical point of view though both can be easily solved. If a player whines about an impromptu event then they’re not worth engaging again. If players are in the middle of RP then it would be worthwhile for a DM to get the lay of the land for a few moments before either engaging or moving on to someone else.

Frankly I think the people who are engaged in a deep multi player RP session are not the ones who would benefit from a fly by, which I think are far more useful for someone mindlessly grinding or looking for something else to do… like waiting at a hub for other players to appear.

Like in either case better players and better DMs make a better experience. But misfires are okay if more people are more engaged more of the time.

[Ghost]

Events devolve into what those involved make it out to be. The important part above was not that we had more than just combat, but that whatever did end up happening was fun for all involved. That was what you didn't mention in your 90% random event turning into combat only events. Did they have fun? You seemed to not particularly enjoy it if they didn't either then its up to you and them to ask why did you steer the events that direction. Why it ended up where it did. If they did in fact have fun event though you didn't, I'm sorry that for you, as a DM is not the most rewarding experience, but your primary goal was achieved, your players got a good time out of it and that's the most important thing and a good thing too

I don't steer events in that direction. I prepare something, because it's extremely hard to do things entirely on the fly with the tools available to us. A situation for the players to react to. I try to engage with RP, with descriptions, but I end up with players who want to sprint-kill everything. And maybe they are in fact having fun. But my goal wasn't just to provide fun. My goal was to provide story. Story that was practically wholly ignored.

When you do stuff like that, you end up feeling like all the time you spent setting up and preparing was wasted. Leaves you discouraged and disheartened.

"This is a dance and it takes two sides to properly do it", as you put it. It does take two to tango. It doesn't take two to jump around randomly in your living room to whatever music you prefer. If we're tangoing, lets tango. But don't tell me you want to tango and then start jumping around randomly to the music I put on.

Frankly I think the people who are engaged in a deep multi player RP session are not the ones who would benefit from a fly by, which I think are far more useful for someone mindlessly grinding or looking for something else to do… like waiting at a hub for other players to appear.

It is almost impossible to provide a fly-by to someone mindlessly grinding. They are constantly sprinting, and by the time you have managed to prepare the NPCs you want to present, they have finished the entire Greypeaks and teleported back to the FAI or Soubar. That's assuming you even caught them going to the Greypeaks as they started out, even. People do that place in 10-15 minutes. To give them any kind of meaningful encounter, I need 10 minutes to even prepare. And by then, they are already gone, especially if I noticed them in the middle of their run.

I'll also be a little bit blunt here: I don't particularly feel like rewarding mindless grinding with events. If I see a group out actually adventuring, however, I get super excited and do my very best to throw something at them. See them walking along RPing between battles? Or stopping to inspect a rune on some scenery? I will engage that as quickly as I can. Give them responses to what they are RPing about, maybe. That rune? That's an ancient dwarven rune whose magic is fading. What does the magic do? Can it be restored? Who knows how? Why is it fading? Maybe the local NPCs are responsible?

But I almost never see it. And I am looking.

At hubs though, I do random events, as I mentioned. Non-combat stuff that can lead to follow-ups for people interested enough to indeed follow up.

[Tanlaus]

It is almost impossible to provide a fly-by to someone mindlessly grinding. They are constantly sprinting, and by the time you have managed to prepare the NPCs you want to present, they have finished the entire Greypeaks and teleported back to the FAI or Soubar. That's assuming you even caught them going to the Greypeaks as they started out, even. People do that place in 10-15 minutes. To give them any kind of meaningful encounter, I need 10 minutes to even prepare. And by then, they are already gone, especially if I noticed them in the middle of their run.

I'll also be a little bit blunt here: I don't particularly feel like rewarding mindless grinding with events. If I see a group out actually adventuring, however, I get super excited and do my very best to throw something at them. See them walking along RPing between battles? Or stopping to inspect a rune on some scenery? I will engage that as quickly as I can. Give them responses to what they are RPing about, maybe. That rune? That's an ancient dwarven rune whose magic is fading. What does the magic do? Can it be restored? Who knows how? Why is it fading? Maybe the local NPCs are responsible?

But I almost never see it. And I am looking.

At hubs though, I do random events, as I mentioned. Non-combat stuff that can lead to follow-ups for people interested enough to indeed follow up.

That’s a fair assessment. I would argue that in some places like the UD- or even the surface at very off peak times- going out to “kill things and take their stuff,” is literally all there is to do with no one else to RP with. Those people, I’d argued, are the most in need of interaction.

As to the interaction itself, I recall grinding Xvarts with a friend late one night years ago. Suddenly on of the xvarts started pleasing with us, asking why we were mindlessly slaughtering his people. Turned into a nice bit of RP that prompted us to voluntarily leave the area. No set up needed. Just talking. Genuinely made me less interested in xvart runs from then on.

[BloodRiot]

I don't steer events in that direction. I prepare something, because it's extremely hard to do things entirely on the fly with the tools available to us. A situation for the players to react to. I try to engage with RP, with descriptions, but I end up with players who want to sprint-kill everything. And maybe they are in fact having fun. But my goal wasn't just to provide fun. My goal was to provide story. Story that was practically wholly ignored.

With respect Ghost but I think the first part in your reply is not exactly the issue. "Random Event" is a loose term from the perspective of the player that gets surprised by said event when they weren't expecting. Again referencing Ink's plot, from our perspective as players, we could say we got surprised by a random event in the sense we didn't expect it. I fully believe Ink had his ground work prepared and perhaps us as targets was also very very intentional. I never once meant "Random Event" to mean something that is being winged/made up as it goes along.

That said a good DM will have his prep work but also the ability to be flexible about the outcomes. Otherwise you get what is usually pejoratively called a Railroad plot. This is just obligatory distinction for clarity's sake.

The "players you end up with"... Now if I'm allowed to throw just a lighthearted barbed comment (not to say it doesn't have a serious bit to it however)... perhaps you need to vary the players you end up DMing for :p You throw a story at me for instance, one that requires me to investigate, do ground work, and yes.. fight as well, and ill definitely engage with your story, as long as all it is isn't being passive audience to NPCs of awesomeness without not much active I can do to affect the outcomes in a meaningful way as an example.

So to wrap up my reply to your reply to my reply. Im fairly sure you and I could enjoy playing together with you offering me a story to engage and me...well engaging with it. All things considered I very much enjoyed the rockrun plot with you. With Dreamer I think I was getting even too involved in the investigation side of his Hag plot. With Ink I ran with a tangent line that was totally in character and was one of the coolest moments for me in that first event.

I think most of us can and will see eye to eye on these issues. The point and only point im trying to make is that DMs also need to take initiative to kickstart some RP flashpoints where they are lacking. Perhaps I presume too much but I do think it should be one of the core responsibilities of a DM if it isn't already.

It is almost impossible to provide a fly-by to someone mindlessly grinding. They are constantly sprinting (...)
(...)
I'll also be a little bit blunt here: I don't particularly feel like rewarding mindless grinding with events. If I see a group out actually adventuring, however(...)

I think you are making this a bit too silly. If a player is mindless grinding, a good chance is they are just keeping busy until something better comes along. All you need to do is throw them a hint there's a DM action starting such as asking them to roll a Spot check... or sending an area wide message going "you sense you are being watched" then watch that sprinting player stop in it's tracks and forgetting everything they are doing there, ready to engage with whatever you present them. If they don't or all they want is more killing, sure whatever, spawn a bunch of enemies that are tougher around them, maybe some golden mobs, if they defeat, they get their reward, if they don't... too bad. then move along to the next player group, maybe they'll be ready to appreciate the kind of thing you really want to do.

Because yes if you randomly port to where my PC is, there is a chance you will find me running a place or another. What am I doing? I'm earning some items and gold through game play. I am also training how to use my new pc by challenging myself in some areas. Yesterday I attempted a ziggurath dragon solo for isntance. There is nothing I could be doing in game that I would not drop at the chance of a cool event being sprung on me. Perhaps if im in the middle of important RP like mentioned a above, but otherwise nah... you'll have all my attention.

[Ghost]

I don't really have any further response to that other than that it's really annoying to repeatedly be told by several people now who don't want to DM themselves, how to DM after I've been doing this for 9 years, as if I have no idea how the DM client works.

So I'll just leave it at that now.

[BloodRiot]

I'm not telling you how to DM or use the DM client. And i'm not dimishing your know how with such tools. I'm telling you what is quite obviously and reasonably so a very common player expectation. You can do whatever you like with that information.

[zhazz]

Here's another idea on how to break the Status Quo.
It's not as fleshed out as the first one I proposed. Mainly because it's late here, and I wanted to get it in before going to bed.

It is loosely based on the portal system employed by the NWN2 server Sigil: City of Doors. There players can find random portals to all sorts of locations, but only if they have the appropriate item in their inventory to attune the portal to them. Until they have that item, or someone else is nearby with said item, the portal remains not just inaccessible, it is entirely non-existent.

Like my previous suggestion, this will one will require some sort of effort to implement, as the goal is for a DM to set something up, and just leave it hands-off. Which, I'll note, DM Spartacus does quite frequently, to the joy and excitement of many.

Outline of what the system enables
A DM gets online, and goes to any given area. There they place down an interactive object or NPC, which require a skill roll of some kind to get a riddle clue or item from. That then leads to another such object or NPC, which points the player towards the next place they need to go.

After a few such steps have been completed, the player will arrive at a destination, where a portal awaits them. Provided they have a required key/attuned item in their inventory, which they got from a previous step; otherwise the portal remains non-existent.

Going through the portal the player is then rewarded either with some chests containing random loot, maybe a dangerous encounter with some monsters, or a one-of-a-kind plot item which only the first player to arrive can get. Maybe a combination of all those things.

In the case of a plot item, the server can the track who picked it up, such that the next time the DM logs in, they are notified of who got the item. After a few such seemingly random events, though gradually made apparent to share a common theme, all the plot items can be brought together for some bigger event, where the DM is then present at throughout.

Point is that it is entirely automated once a DM has set it up, and ideally should persist through server resets, so the hands-off event doesn't fizzle into nothingness. To some readers it may sound familiar. And that's because it is essentially a multi-area version of the statue mini-quest in the Gibberling caves beneath the FAI. In that mini-quest players need to do a mix of skill rolls, have appropriate items (a gem iirc), answer a riddle, and crawl through a tiny hole. All in order to open a door leading to a few extra chests.


Benefits/drawbacks/considerations
If DMs had a means of setting up similar on-the-fly events within e.g. an hour or so, it'd be much easier to set something up for players to interact with. Will it be as immersive as fully controlled NPCs, ad-hoc rulings for substitute skill rolls, and gentle nudging when players gets stuck? Of course not. But it'd be something to at least add a little variety to the game.

Once setup, since it is hands-off, the DM can spend the rest of their online time in-game helping players out with requests, while still keeping an eye on the event they set up. Maybe drop into the event now and then to add flair. But the event won't get stuck by the DM not being there. And the DM won't be hard-locked into doing an on-the-fly event, leaving no time to help players.