A plea: Forum moderation

[zhazz]

During my time on the forums I've seen countless threads get locked down due to any number of reasons, though typically due to a tiny minority eventually resorting to name-calling, throwing mud at each other, trolling others, or intentionally derailing with inane comments.

As someone who enjoys friendly and open-minded discussion on both simple and complex issues, this is greatly frustrating. Not only does it prevent or disincentivize further discussion, as information is slowly fragmented across multiple threads, it also leaves the door open for those same transgressors to jump straight into new threads and continue their shenanigans there.

So please, rather than lock down threads, can we please, please, make use of more granular forum moderation tools, such as the below?

• Moderator edit of offending posts
• Timing out users
• Banning users from threads
• Banning users from a sub-forum
• Forum-wide bans

And if that's not possible, then I'd very much like to ask:
Why not?


Thank you in advance.

[Ghost]

Unfortunately whatever we do, we will keep facing the accusation of shutting down discussion.

When we remove posts because of people starting flame wars, we get told we're actually doing it because we don't like their opinions.
When we ban people for their behaviour, we get told we're actually doing it because we don't like their opinions.
When we lock threads because people can't show one another basic human respect, we get told we're actually locking the threads because we don't like their opinions.

The people who gets their posts removed or get banned, take it as vindication of their toxic attitudes. They stuck it to the staff and staff proved them right by silencing them! Or so they will tell their friends in their private discords. And then word spreads in all private conversations, and the lies and conspiracy theories become accepted reality.

There's no winning here. There's no solution. There's just stress and pain for those who try to manage it. I've been called a tyrant despite all evidence to the contrary enough times to know that some people refuse to have their conspiracy theories dispelled.

[whatsittoya]

Unfortunately whatever we do, we will keep facing the accusation of shutting down discussion.

When we remove posts because of people starting flame wars, we get told we're actually doing it because we don't like their opinions.
When we ban people for their behaviour, we get told we're actually doing it because we don't like their opinions.
When we lock threads because people can't show one another basic human respect, we get told we're actually locking the threads because we don't like their opinions.

The people who gets their posts removed or get banned, take it as vindication of their toxic attitudes. They stuck it to the staff and staff proved them right by silencing them! Or so they will tell their friends in their private discords. And then word spreads in all private conversations, and the lies and conspiracy theories become accepted reality.

There's no winning here. There's no solution. There's just stress and pain for those who try to manage it. I've been called a tyrant despite all evidence to the contrary enough times to know that some people refuse to have their conspiracy theories dispelled.

Every form of moderation is going to butt up against this at one point or another, but the granular approach still allows everyone else in a discussion to continue it. I think the point being made here is that locking an entire thread instead of targeting problem elements specifically is more of a collective punishment.

'Dave couldn't behave, now nobody gets a thread'

[Planehopper]

The vast majority of moderation (which is actually pretty rare these days) is singular, granular, and mostly consists of warning and requests.

And for most people, that’s enough.

There will always be threads that have run their course, become magnets for toxic bs, and go unchecked to the point where individual moderation either isn’t worth the effort or no longer viable. It’s unfortunate when it happens but luckily it’s pretty rare.

In the end, we do far more granular moderation than not, but we’ll continue to lock threads as needed.

[Lambe]

Forum rules clearly state thread locking as one possible result for the rules being broken. These include personal attacks, trolling, etc.

Having said that, can we not feed the trolls? Unless names are being dropped I really dont see any reason to take insinuations as direct attacks, even generalizations. There's going to be criticism, some even constructive, it's frustrating to see entire threads devolve into back-and-forths when the general populace doesnt even have any idea what you're talking about. There are some of us who want to just sift through the crap looking for those few good ideas.

Threads about garnering/retaining players...well it's a small community. The server's gained just as much bad rep as good after all these years, last thing we want is to have it shown for all to see in these forums.

[blazerules]

I have been an admin on a few servers before. Both in game and on the forums.

While sometimes its nice and kind of idealistic to focus on moderating the thread often times its just a lot easier and better for everyone's sanity to just lock it. In a sense the thread got agro and you need to disengage.

Granted I do think threads in which people can speak their grievences is not the worst idea so long as it's not coming down to personal attacks. And that does work to some extent, sometimes even helps find legitimate issues on a server. Although in this case I've only seen that happen in anonymous formats. And never in public ones.

The thread in question that started this one has honestly gone off topic (and most people had no idea what it was even about... like me.) and it really wouldn't have hurt to say yeah. This is off topic. Stfu. Or split the thread off into another one. I remember one forum I was part of had The Salt Mines thread just for that

[DaloLorn]

Ironically, while I was the one who actually, actively called for that thread to be shut down after one of Chambo's posts riled me up (and Whistler then fanned the flames)... I feel like we were able to come to terms in literally the hour it was closed, just exchanging PMs with each other. Yay, me.

In hindsight, it would have ended on a far better note if our PMs had gotten to be posts in that thread. I'm not sure there's a place my PM could reasonably be posted (minus my complaint that Ghost cut me off halfway through writing it! ), and I don't think I should be posting his replies either way without finding a way to get his permission first... but it didn't end as angrily as the thread makes it look, on either side.

[Steve]

• Moderator edit of offending posts
• Timing out users
• Banning users from threads
• Banning users from a sub-forum
• Forum-wide bans

Venting, ranting, trolling (maliciously), personal accusations, public tongue lashing…these things DO need to be moderated. It’s just way to easy to be an arsehat online in an anonymous way, like these Forums, most Forums are.

I think Zhazz’ suggestions are good, though planehopper is saying granulation already happens. We do need an open forum that does have a certain amount of healthy free speech. But it’s easy to see how some just take it too far, both players AND Staff.

If you’re a mod and/or on Staff and are being attacked or get riled up by comments, you cannot say you’re being unbiased in your actions when moderating. I know full well how challenging it can be to keep a cool head sometimes.

Personally, I do think it’s better practice to edit out commentary that breaks the Forum posting rules, than lock a thread entirely. I do think it’s better practice to “time out” a poster who is continuing to break the rules, than lock a thread. I do think that after repeat offense, it is better practice to ban the poster than lock a thread, disallowing the conversation or debate to continue.

But I also want to say this: sometimes those that moderate or a few with moderation rights are also causing the problem of negativity and distraction in a thread. You can look at my recently started thread about gaining/retaining players as a direct example.

Look, no one is perfect, and I’ll be the first person to say this about myself. But if you are in a position of power or in the group of said community members, take a look at how your own statements and posts can also spark the flame. People see that VERY clearly, and it erodes the faith we need as a community to have in our mods, their moderation, and the general management.

That said, I appreciate those that put in the work, because it isn’t easy and not always fun (I know this first hand from my own past on BGTSCC staff). Point is: to get better. We can all always get better at something. Cheers.

[Almarea90]

I don't usually like to lock threads and I'd rather give an extra warning than not. But in all honesty that specific thread had gone way out of hand. Is it our fault for not stepping up sooner? Probably if the malicious interventions had been nipped in the bud the thread wouln't have been locked, but these things happen fast and we can't be online the whole time. I sometimes wake up and find that the thread has gone out of control overnight.

[blazerules]

Is it our fault for not stepping up sooner?

Let's be entirely honest. Someone would step in to complain about overmoderation if you did.

[Steve]

Is it our fault for not stepping up sooner?

I'm sorry if it seems I'm laying the blame on one or a group of people (moderators). You have a "job" to do and it's not pretty. Nor fun And often thankless.

That is why I wrote I appreciate those that do do the work!

What can be, CAN BE not always is, comes from when moderation is done by someone involved in the issue or negativity itself. Like, and obviously, better to have neutral parties do the moderation, those not involved in whatever conversation. As best as possible.

I'm not arguing against Forum moderation at all. Because I believe the whole point of good moderation is so that the discussion and the theads can carry on. Which didn't happen in this latest case, unfortunately. Because yes, the last few posts broke the rules, but BEFORE those last few posts, community members were still trying to offer ideas for improvements in a very positive way. Cheers.

[CarlPoppa]

Perhaps invite-only discord channels for these kinds of discussions? Much like the LF-RP channel, where you can do that command thing to be allowed in? It's not an attempt to exclude anyone from discussions, but simply a way to make them stay-on-topic.

[Ewe]

I'm tired of these trolls it is affecting the Discord, too. I tried to talk reason to these people but they will not listen. The best thing we can do is ignore them.