Bonus Skill Points Based on All Ability Modifiers

[Flights of Fantasy]

This is something that's popped into my head a bit ago. I always found it odd how you can only get bonus skill points with Intelligence especially when many skills are not Intelligence based. Wouldn't it make more sense if the bonus was based on all your abilities?

Say you're a fighter with high Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution but only average when it comes to the mental abilities. That's pretty much the ideal fighter. And yet you will only get two Skill points per level assuming 10 Int. Whereas another fighter who is average in his physical abilities but highly intelligent will get far more skill points.

It would be nice if the bonus points were based on an average of all your ability modifiers. Though it would be even better if it could be based on your class. Example, Fighters get a skill point bonus based on STR, Rogues DEX, Barbarians CON, Wizards INT, Clerics WIS, Sorcerers CHA, etc. Essentially, each class has a favored attribute that determines their bonus skill points on top of their Class Skill Points per level up.

This would give an interesting spin on multiclassing. Say you want to be a "War Wizard" and take four levels of Fighter with a starting Intelligence of 18 and 14 in Strength. On fighter levels you will only get 2 bonus skill points while you'll get 4 on your Wizard levels. And assuming you will be putting all your attribute level ups into Intelligence, you would be encouraged to take your fighter levels as soon as possible to maximize skill point usage.

Some might argue this would give PCs too many skill points, but BG has a LOT more skills than vanilla, especially with lore split into all the branches of study, professions, crafting, etc. More than likely it's impossible in NWN2, but maybe someone will adopt it in their next Pen & Paper game or something.

[Rhifox]

Skill points are a matter of being able to learn and grow. That is a capacity of Intelligence. Indeed, mindless creatures gain no skill points at all, because they are unable to learn. Other attributes govern how you use a skill, not how you develop it. Someone particularly strong will be good at athletics, and be naturally talented at them even with no points invested in the skill. They're able to get away with investing fewer points into the skill because much more of their capability at it comes from natural abilities. But to actually develop their skill, they have to practice, make mistakes, and then learn from their mistakes. It determines the ability to understand the right and wrong way to approach at ask. Often they have to learn under a tutor, whether that is a formal instructor or simply observing others around them and learning from the way they see others do it. All of this is governed by Intelligence. Or levels and class training, with regards to class skill point gain.

And mechanically speaking, we do not want to encourage more min-maxing than people already do. Intelligence's primary purpose in the game is in granting extra skill points (only a single class actually gets spellcasting benefits from Intelligence. For every other character, its primary purpose is in skill points). A character that wants more skill points needs to invest in Intelligence. They don't get to just keep investing all of their points into the same skill they use for everything else.

Finally, yes, an 'average of attributes' isn't even really possible in NWN2 (at least not without deep code changes, which we have other priorities for).

In short, no, this won't be changing.

Some might argue this would give PCs too many skill points, but BG has a LOT more skills than vanilla, especially with lore split into all the branches of study, professions, crafting, etc.

We still have fewer Skills than pnp, and far more skill points than one receives in pnp due to the higher level range. Plus global class skills.

If there is an issue with skills, it is that Acrobatics and Spellcraft give passive mechanical benefits that encourages people to invest all of their points into these skills instead of diversifying. Likewise, UMD feels more mandatory than it should, especially with unnecessary and nonsensical racial/class requirements on many gear items. If anything further is likely to change on skills, it would be in reducing the incentive to put all of one's points into these "mandatory" skills.

[artemitavik]

This is why 5e does skill proficiencies rather than blanket skill point assessment. Your proficiencies are then on your background, race, some by choice etc. Also not a perfect system because you can't ever really "grow" into something else without vastly lowering your other mechanical effectiveness.

not a perfect system either way, but... it's what we got.

[Tanlaus]

If there is an issue with skills, it is that Acrobatics and Spellcraft give passive mechanical benefits that encourages people to invest all of their points into these skills instead of diversifying. Likewise, UMD feels more mandatory than it should, especially with unnecessary and nonsensical racial/class requirements on many gear items. If anything further is likely to change on skills, it would be in reducing the incentive to put all of one's points into these "mandatory" skills.

This has always been my feeling. There would be a lot of grumbling but it would free up skill selection. And help with the stacking issues that has always been my personal crusade- or maybe windmill tilting - about balance issues. UMD might still feel mandatory because of wands, but maybe a greater variety of potions would overcome that.

[Obvious_Illusion]

I'd personally really like to see these changes! (e.g., to acrobatics / spellcrafts)

[artemitavik]

The problem with removing the mechanical benefits of those skills is multiple fold, sadly.

First, the game is balanced for level 30, and video game-mechanically still in a lot of places with immunities and abilities that just are silly as the racial/class requirements on the equipment, meaning the enemies throw more spells and higher AB. So reduction suddenly of 3 AC points (which is significant especially in boss fights) and saves vs spells leaves martials completely out in the cold in PVE, not to mention PVP. This hands even more of the game balance to the Gish and magic users than already is, which is pretty significant (granted, I get the issue with the damage spells not working well and all, but that's a monster saves issue in PVE which is a WHOLE other issue)

This means second: you'd have to do a full rebalance of a huge portion of the enemies BEFORE removing those benefits.

Removing some of those benefits was already attempted in a fashion in the martial rebalance, from my understanding, and it did NOT go over well with the majority of the playerbase that played non-magical people for the above reasons. Removal of them again would have a similar result likely.

There would of course then have to be the vast allowances of free RCRs to get people to redistribute their skill points.

Reliance on consumables is sketchy at best because how easy it is for them to be dispelled by virtually everything above level 20.

Unfortunately, IMO, no matter how hard you try, you're never going to have a level 30 server have the balance everyone's always wanting, because level 30 is inherently unbalanced, and since people like their numbers, and the arms race vs mobs over the years has made them have a ridiculous amount of abilities/resistances/HP enhances the issue. It would need to be deconstructed from the far side first, which is an ungodly amount of work.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

A few corrections would easily shift priority toward martial without needing to change skill function.

[artemitavik]

I think Rhi's point was that the skill functions shouldn't be there because they're not there in the tabletop version, etc. So there would be a skill function change if such was implemented. Unfortunately, getting the rest of the NPC block to match the same PnP abilities, etc, would be an incredible effort as well afaik.

*shrug* it's all hypothetical atm anyway 'cause last time there was massive issues with removing similar skill functions and there would be again. So the approach would have to be different.

[Tanlaus]

Rebalance would not be hard and frankly I doubt it would even be needed. Players can already stack to pretty insane AC levels and solo bosses as is.

[Rhifox]

This means second: you'd have to do a full rebalance of a huge portion of the enemies BEFORE removing those benefits.

This is why it hasn't been done yet.