Reducing the amount of restrictions on grind XP

[Snarfy]

Because if that isn't the goal, then justify having low level content, and so much of it, go underutilized on BGTSCC. Empty pockets of existence!!!!

This.

When the server boasted 80+ player counts and had numerous groups out grinding wyverns/gibberlings or dungeons, this might have not been so great an idea. As it stands currently, and on any given day, it's a rarity to see even 1/3 of the 20-30 players logged in grinding/adventuring in groups. Most of those doing so are usually soloing or in small parties. Typically you'll see one large group out, if that, and that's about it.
** - IE: 30 players online now, 5 of which are in dungeons/XP'ing exteriors. **

If any type of change was made in this regard, I wager the impact would be negligible, and the con's would likely not outweigh the pro's. Worst case scenario: a small percentage of players would grind more and possibly get XP faster(? debatable). *shrug*

[Zanniej]

Because if that isn't the goal, then justify having low level content, and so much of it, go underutilized on BGTSCC. Empty pockets of existence!!!!

This.

When the server boasted 80+ player counts and had numerous groups out grinding wyverns/gibberlings or dungeons, this might have not been so great an idea. As it stands currently, and on any given day, it's a rarity to see even 1/3 of the 20-30 players logged in grinding/adventuring in groups. Most of those doing so are usually soloing or in small parties. Typically you'll see one large group out, if that, and that's about it.
** - IE: 30 players online now, 5 of which are in dungeons/XP'ing exteriors. **

If any type of change was made in this regard, I wager the impact would be negligible, and the con's would likely not outweigh the pro's. Worst case scenario: a small percentage of players would grind more and possibly get XP faster(? debatable). *shrug*

I agree with this assessment.

The amount of <level 30 players I see are also not very large, and to be honest, I don't see many good arguments against lifting it, apart from it making grinding more appealing.
And as Snarf points out very nicely, that con would, in my opinion, be outweighed by the pro of more people grouping up, and thus, having more people play this game together.

As many people also point out, such restrictions can easily be circumvented. And while on one side you can say "Removing this restriction will encourage people to circle-grind more", the other side of it is "Removing this restriction will encourage people to party-up more".

And given the amount of level 30 players online on any average moment, who exactly are we trying to prevent from leveling too fast?
Just me? Is everybody fearful that when I've reached level 30 by myself, I'll close the server
You all know that's a joke right? I'll never reach level 30! Regardless of how easy it gets

[DaloLorn]

I'm gonna go in and put in my two cents:

I hate when my character feels useless on an adventure. Level disparities (and build disparities, for that matter) can take a lot of the mechanical enjoyment out of visiting a dungeon.

But my insistence on only seeking parties with people within my XP range (on top of all the RP-related considerations factoring into my party selection) has had the consequence of making me highly reluctant to create new characters unless there were a bunch of newbies they could team up with, and left some of my characters simply... adrift, unable to do anything unless they're capable of soloing or get really lucky and involve themselves in a DM plot.

Conversely, my perceived inability to offer anything to lower-level characters except idle conversation, pre-adventure buffs, and expensive gifts has limited my interaction with new characters; a particularly dire flaw as an UD guild leader, since the newbies rarely have the stamina to reach epic levels on their own, and even more rarely have the low-level peers needed to make the journey bearable.

All in all, while I do want people to enjoy the server's low-level experience... the experience they're getting is not the experience I want them to be enjoying, it's not the one I remember enjoying in the past, and it hinders legitimate roleplay. If we agree on it, it's a trivially simple matter to remove the level range check, though it's worth noting that the proposal as written will still forbid low-level characters from being dragged to epic dungeons for XP.

[Snarfy]

You all know that's a joke right? I'll never reach level 30! Regardless of how easy it gets

ROFL!

Conversely, my perceived inability to offer anything to lower-level characters except idle conversation, pre-adventure buffs, and expensive gifts has limited my interaction with new characters; a particularly dire flaw as an UD guild leader, since the newbies rarely have the stamina to reach epic levels on their own, and even more rarely have the low-level peers needed to make the journey bearable.

Agreed. Mentoring, whether in a guild or not, would seem really stale when you're unable to go on adventures with new people because you OOC'ly don't want to gimp their XP. "Yeah, errr... I have paperwork to do, so... off you go! And welcome to the guild!" I imagine guild outings with a big level differential run into the same issue, especially with so many level 30's around. As a new person in a guild, getting penalized for going on an adventure with your new mates would be pretty discouraging.

All in all, while I do want people to enjoy the server's low-level experience... the experience they're getting is not the experience I want them to be enjoying, it's not the one I remember enjoying in the past, and it hinders legitimate roleplay.

+1. My original low level experience was exciting and fun as heck, and there was never any shortage of groups to find, but this was 12 years back. I honestly don't know how newer players, or even regulars, roll up a level 1 from scratch(I just can't do it, and haven't for years) and consistently find enough adventuring cohorts or the motivation to level up while contending with the group xp, area xp, and loot scripts.

[DaloLorn]

Agreed. Mentoring, whether in a guild or not, would seem really stale when you're unable to go on adventures with new people because you OOC'ly don't want to gimp their XP. "Yeah, errr... I have paperwork to do, so... off you go! And welcome to the guild!" I imagine guild outings with a big level differential run into the same issue, especially with so many level 30's around. As a new person in a guild, getting penalized for going on an adventure with your new mates would be pretty discouraging.

I mean, it can work in some cases (I figure the spellcasting classes have a particularly diverse array of RP opportunities for a mentorship, though Aeryn's studies under Enakid still necessitated a lot of grinding in between her lessons), but it's not easy to make it work without turning stale. Even with the raised RP XP rates.

While the OP explicitly shot it down, I might be in favor of allowing lowbies to ignore the upper limit on a creature's CR when they're in a party with a higher-level PC, so that they can learn by observing their seniors fighting harder enemies. For instance, a level 5 getting full XP for CR20 mobs killed by a level 20 PC (or more likely a level 30 PC), with the caveat that it still respects the 50XP cap.

+1. My original low level experience was exciting and fun as heck, and there was never any shortage of groups to find, but this was 12 years back. I honestly don't know how newer players, or even regulars, roll up a level 1 from scratch(I just can't do it, and haven't for years) and consistently find enough adventuring cohorts or the motivation to level up while contending with the group xp, area xp, and loot scripts.

For my part, I only pull it off by timing my new characters to coincide with the appearance of other new characters in that same region. Even then, it's a crapshoot: Sometimes they'll vastly outlevel me by grinding more than I do, or they'll disappear long before reaching epics, both of which leave me with a mid-level character and nobody to adventure with. Sometimes they'll do both!

[Ghost]

Can we at least add a chance then to spawn a few mob of the CR of the highest level character? Make the level 30 sweat a bit when they are carrying the 3 level 10s circle grinding xvarts with no RP?

I'm sorry for characterising it this in such a pointed way, but I feel like no one actually takes my concern seriously - or even acknowledges it. Sure, you can "easily" circumvent (easy doesn't mean it isn't a hassle - a good hassle at that). But this line of argument is kind of like saying "some paladins group with necromancers and demon summoners, so we should just let paladins be of any alignment". Just because people engage in OOC behaviour doesn't mean we should further enable it.

Come up with a way to reward grouping with large level spans that REQUIRE people to roleplay, then you'll pique my interest.

[Steve]

I used to regularly take lower levels through dungeons I "outleveled". RPed instructing them if that was the RP that day, all that stuff.

I just... didn't group with them. Granted, this makes, if you're a magic user, using magic healing and aoes perhaps more difficult, but they got the xp for killing stuff, I only stepped in mechanically if things got overwhelming, rp was had, loot was found, they got xp from stuff they wouldn't necessarily have been able to fight on their own and thus leveled fast, good times all around. It takes a bit of energy to keep track of their HP and stuff, sure, because you don't have the group listing on the side of your screen, but it's very doable and super fun.

Just to emphasize what Artemitavik wrote, which is on point. If you want to "mentor," then here is your functional example without making the speed leveling more speedier.

Like I keep drumming on about, letting higher level PCs and lower level PCs "adventure" together—read: grind for XP/leveling, not really RP—is an issue that speaks to the Bigger Issue of why Players are not enjoying the lower levels of experience, on BGTSCC. A) most current Players on BGTSCC are playing L30 characters, so new players feel some need to match them in mechanical power (because RP-wise, you do NOT need to be same HD); B) there is no benefit to staying low level (as in Items, Campaigns, interactions, even RP storyline...though I'd argue you get what you bring here).

How about this suggestion: remove XP gained when a mob is killed by another PC, but also remove any restrictions of XP reduction while grouped up. That way, if lowbies are with highbies and the highbie kills it, the highbie gets the XP, and none for the lowbie(s). If the lowbie lands the killing blow, then the highbie(s) get nothing. Yet still, the group can adventure (grind) together, each helping in whatever way necessary, but the XP gain isn't going to be provided by the higher and more efficient build.

[Steve]

I'm sorry for characterising it this in such a pointed way, but I feel like no one actually takes my concern seriously - or even acknowledges it.

I do! And considering we agree upon something, that in itself has value!!!

[DaloLorn]

How about this suggestion: remove XP gained when a mob is killed by another PC, but also remove any restrictions of XP reduction while grouped up. That way, if lowbies are with highbies and the highbie kills it, the highbie gets the XP, and none for the lowbie(s). If the lowbie lands the killing blow, then the highbie(s) get nothing. Yet still, the group can adventure (grind) together, each helping in whatever way necessary, but the XP gain isn't going to be provided by the higher and more efficient build.

I could see this working as an added rule for parties with big level disparities, but it is absolutely unacceptable for same-level parties. Kill rates are seldom evenly distributed throughout a party, especially when you party up with warlocks and high-end ranged builds (or when you're a mage, who can normally only hope to land killing blows a few times per rest period unless the rest of the party is literally ignoring their chosen target for a dozen rounds at a time).

... Though granted, warlocks stealing everyone's XP would be a great way to incentivize players to shun them...

[Snarfy]

Can we at least add a chance then to spawn a few mob of the CR of the highest level character? Make the level 30 sweat a bit when they are carrying the 3 level 10s circle grinding xvarts with no RP?

What about something like a hard cap of 50% xp for the lower levels in the party? Anything that isn't 1xp, or whatever it currently is. Mind you, I'm thinking more about groups with one or two low levels/recruits teamed with a few 30s, rather than some 30 dragging around a lowbie zerg crew, which I sincerely doubt being much of an issue. The player count is low enough to spot exploiters a mile away, and those types do an obvious enough job at ostracizing themselves to not be noticed.

[DaloLorn]

Can we at least add a chance then to spawn a few mob of the CR of the highest level character? Make the level 30 sweat a bit when they are carrying the 3 level 10s circle grinding xvarts with no RP?

What about something like a hard cap of 50% xp for the lower levels in the party? Anything that isn't 1xp, or whatever it currently is. Mind you, I'm thinking more about groups with one or two low levels/recruits teamed with a few 30s, rather than some 30 dragging around a lowbie zerg crew, which I sincerely doubt being much of an issue. The player count is low enough to spot exploiters a mile away, and those types do an obvious enough job at ostracizing themselves to not be noticed.

With that target scenario, it may be appropriate to scale XP to the killer instead of the recipient. For instance, if there's a level 30 in the party, their party members would only gain the same XP as the level 30 would have gained for killing the same creature.

[Steve]

The two extreme scenarios are:

a) a Level 30 joins with a L1–10 Group for CR 1-10 grinding.
b) A Level 1-10 joins a L30 Group for CR 28–30 grinding.

In scenario A, the L30 limits the XP gain for the CR appropriate Group, right? But can totally slaughter the content FOR the lowbies. In scenario B, the L1–10 limits the XP gain for the high CR appropriate Group (not to forget to mention pretty much useless against the Content, not able to apply themselves to the Grind but there to gain...role-play?).

The issue raised? That XP gain is unprofitable in both situations. Grinding XP for ALL PCs in each situation is unprofitable.

Is it still though impossible for there to be meaningful Role-play in either situation? No. Factually, no. It's just impossible to profit in XP.

But the paradigm of BGTSCC is to reduce the grind-play. Look, we all do it, so I'm not saying "I'm better than you." But if the goal is to make Leveling easier between existing PC of disparate Level, with the goal that getting to 30 is the objective...then why not just let Players roll up a new Character with the ability to select whatever level they want to begin with at creation?

Because anyone that has done the grind knows that it can never, ever, be fast enough. Right?!?

[Zanniej]

I just don't think we should penalize everybody, because some people would be able to circle grind more effectively.
They're going to circle-grind, cap in place or not.

And while I agree that it's an immersion-breaking past time when people do it so OOCly, I think you penalize the wrong thing, and focus on the wrong thing by using this as a topic to make a point on circle-grinding.

I'd personally prefer to address that as a separate issue, as I feel the level cap doesn't have too much influence on that behaviour. If you feel it does, however, then I'd like to hear how. But I still feel the pros outweigh the cons.

[Steve]

If you feel it does, however, then I'd like to hear how. But I still feel the pros outweigh the cons.

Giving a grouped up Party a mechanical advantage during The Grind, both speeds up and makes it easier to grind. That's not a "feeling," that's a fact.

Grinding XP just isn't immersion breaking, it is very much OOC behavior. How much OOC behavior is okay? I mean, look at the title of this thread!

Shouldn't the emphasize be put on giving disparate Level PCs IC reason to group up, not OOC reasons?

If this thread was of the topic "Suggestion for how can disparate Level PCs can better go adventure together for role-play experience", it would be much more appropriate discussion for a Role-play Server, don't you think Zan?

[Ewe]

OOC restrictions limit certain behaviors but also inadvertently hinder some RP possibilities. Removing these restrictions could enhance RP experiences, yet may also encourage unwanted OOC actions.


Yep, definitely a Kobayashi Maru.