Community Proposal : Material Component Spell Costs

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The PW's PvE rebalance would benefit from a material cost to reduce the amount of spellcasting and UMd abuse in order to accomplish PvE goals. This allows development to then remove HP sponge, high save, high stat NPCs off the board, changed to something far more suitable that doesn't require 10+ buffs for dungeon crawling, DM events, etc. Players would have more points to distribute elsewhere as they'll not need to necessitate level 8 scrolls at whim for simple encounters. With this, the return of persistent spell (not reapplied between resets) can occur, and though metamagic would have a multiplicative value attached, it would be made available again and useful to the populace.

Loot would not have its gold output increased to support it, but life-after-30 objectives with occupation and guild systems can.

This only affects M tagged spell component requirements of spells and all Epic Spells.

[Ithrinael]

As someone who is rather very conservative with expending spell slots:

I'm for it. An overall reduction in magic buffs allows for lower PvE stats (which should come with it), which should make the game more enjoyable. Also more swarm monsters, which would favor several AoE spells as well.

However, I'd propose not to directly use gold, but allow conversion into some other value, call it components. Components (could even be divided into arcane/divine) are in general a seperate gold system. Components can be bought from specific merchants (for example Sundries in BG, perhaps discounts at specific guilds?) and provide for X gold Y charges of components. However, crafting could be tied into that as well, characters could, for example, use alchemy to create the components from herbs (at a better ratio than simply buying from NPCs). Components could also drop as loot in dungeons, which would be less useful for a warrior, but a caster (or even a dedicated buffer in a team!) could regain some of his expended resources with that.

(all depending on the load on the game though )

[Deathgrowl]

This just adds tedious and irritating maintainance. I would much rather just increase the rest timer, if the goal is to make people more conservative with spells.

I don't see how material cost is even remotely a balance factor in HP bloat or other PvE matters.

And Persistent Spell sounds like a dangerous can of worms to open.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

As someone who is rather very conservative with expending spell slots:

I'm for it. An overall reduction in magic buffs allows for lower PvE stats (which should come with it), which should make the game more enjoyable. Also more swarm monsters, which would favor several AoE spells as well.

However, I'd propose not to directly use gold, but allow conversion into some other value, call it components. Components (could even be divided into arcane/divine) are in general a seperate gold system. Components can be bought from specific merchants (for example Sundries in BG, perhaps discounts at specific guilds?) and provide for X gold Y charges of components. However, crafting could be tied into that as well, characters could, for example, use alchemy to create the components from herbs (at a better ratio than simply buying from NPCs). Components could also drop as loot in dungeons, which would be less useful for a warrior, but a caster (or even a dedicated buffer in a team!) could regain some of his expended resources with that.

(all depending on the load on the game though )

Can definitely support object components as a progressing step afterward, but one concern of it is availability of the component and its separate micromanaging system. I wouldn't also want these to be guild locked, but individuals in those guilds could be selling them. That'd be a definite later discussion / thread.

[Sundown]

Sounds like an interesting Idea. Would makes it more exciting in any case.

You just have to remember that it should also works when someone use druidlike shapeshifting with natural-spell-feat.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, I do think that there is a problem with "spell spam". I'm not quite sold that this would solve that issue, but neither am I completely against it. However, with that being said, I do not currently have a better idea, and so would not complain if it were implemented.

However, I do think it should not be just a gold cost, though. There are people (however rare) that do not go into dungeons often and this new gold sink would be a burden and tedium to them and harm RP rather than enhancing it. But if it were, as someone else said, a separate material (or charge) and these could be farmed in addition to buying them, then I'll be for it.

TLDR; I'm for it if it's a component system that isn't just a gold sink, but against it being just a gold sink.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, I do think that there is a problem with "spell spam". I'm not quite sold that this would solve that issue, but neither am I completely against it. However, with that being said, I do not currently have a better idea, and so would not complain if it were implemented.

However, I do think it should not be just a gold cost, though. There are people (however rare) that do not go into dungeons often and this new gold sink would be a burden and tedium to them and harm RP rather than enhancing it. But if it were, as someone else said, a separate material (or charge) and these could be farmed in addition to buying them, then I'll be for it.

TLDR; I'm for it if it's a component system that isn't just a gold sink, but against it being just a gold sink.

Other financial opportunities will be proposed, just outside of the scope of this thread.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I just logged in to check my spellbook, and see what I had prepared that had material components. Firstly, in my prepared list, I only found three spells that needed materials. Two of them were travel spells, and so already have a mechanical gold cost associated with them. The other had a material cost, but it was "A pinch of dust and some drops of water".

I decided to go through my whole spellbook. Besides the ones I had prepared, I found only five spells that needed material components (for a total of 8 spells in the whole druid's book).
Frost Breath - 3 drops of water (or ice chips)
Thorn Skin - A thorn
Fire Seeds - Berries/Acorns, and (50/100/150/200) gold amount of coal, etc.
Guards and Wards - 5000gp of materials
Master Earth - 850gp of fossils

So, for druids, this would barely affect us. I am going to assume that a component cost of something like "drops of dust/water" wouldn't need to be paid for as they are so easily come by (bend over and pick up dirt and wipe some dew off a blade of grass), thorns could just be grabbed anywhere in the forest, and the others already have the cost right there.

So all in all, I'm not against this, so long as common sense is used. "This can be gathered anywhere, so if they have the spell prepared, they thought to pick up some dust off the ground" kind of thing. But for things that need more exotic materials, such as fossils, it would make sense to have a cost associated with it.

I do not know the arcane spell components anymore, having been too long since I had to RP that. But if something needs a "bat's wing" or something they wouldn't just naturally have on them, I would say a gold cost would be a good thing unless/until we can come up with some kind of component-charge system.

[predrag]

I'm all for a change that would make wands and potions less appealing . Spell buffs too .
Also torn about this , as it doesn't feel like the solution , but can't for the life of me figure out a better one .
A PVE rebalance would be neat in any case , if this is necessary for it , let it be done !

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I'm all for a change that would make wands and potions less appealing . Spell buffs too .

Will be posting a thread about the wands and potions separately, they need brought up with the times.

Also torn about this , as it doesn't feel like the solution , but can't for the life of me figure out a better one .
A PVE rebalance would be neat in any case , if this is necessary for it , let it be done !

It's one spoke of a multitude of modifications to let the PvE rebalance pendulum have less of an arc of swing for its corrections. Should shore up casting in vain, and 20+ buff queues that more variety is then implemented thereafter. I'm all for better solutions, but I'm also for changes and theories put into production. This is something that is easily modifiable, roll-back, etc from if after a while the consensus is it wasn't the end result people hoped for. Let's not be afraid to get our feet wet a bit.

[Goat]

To me the issue isn't the spells. Right now I find spellcasters kind of junk because of how our mobs are balanced. Balancing defo needs to come first or together.

I'm worried about persistent spells coming back. I'm not sure they are needed, even with material changes. I'd rather just shift durations if some need it.

I'm not sure how I feel about this overall though yet. Not pro/against yet. I'm just again, concerned of it being tedious. Isn't the point of capping players with spell slots the means to stop them from spamming? Even if balance was introduced to mobs, would they even have enough to assault a end game area before running out of spells? What costs are we actually looking for in a run, lets say in grey peaks, for cost usage?

And if it IS introduced. It needs to be simple. I think having for example, 100 different types of components needed would be just silly. I know that's probably not the case, but I'm just pointing it out. I'd rather have a handful or less where you use more per cast of said item.

I don't think this is a reason or way to make wands/potions less appealing though, if that is any reason for the change then I would toss that out the window. I know that's not the only reason here, but since it was mentioned, I'm pointing it out. It would be an absurd reason to change spells on a whole. I would rather change how potions/wands are handled over making spellcasting more painful.

[DiceyCZ]

I don't think the spells are the problem here, a fighter build without spells has all numbers much higher than a fully buffed shapechanged mage with epic transmutations focus and Augment Form feats. Long term wards on someone with +4 gear amount to +1 per spell since most bottom out at +5. The big advantage are the short term buffs half of which can only be cast on a caster and on wands only last a moment. Yes there have been some mage powerbuilds but most have problem walking down the Lion's Way without warding because the random bandit encounter will kill them in two rounds.

If there was to be added cost to spellcasting with the idea that buffs are too strong then the spells would have to be made more powerful, otherwise it would not be worth casting most wards. Which reduces the need for mages, most of whom require a party for almost anything.

If anything wands, potions and scrolls are causing a situation where most people don't even wait for a mage to ward them, they just start spamming items in a group. If anything it's the general easy access to spells by non-casters and balancing of martial classes. At this point a bard has more impact than a wizard when it comes to buffing and healers are almost non-existent.

The only thing most martial builds rely on casters for is immunities most of which can also be wanded and scrolled and Greater Heroism. And it can't even be said that mages do more damage when spending 3 epic spell casts for pure dmg spell amounts to one round of martial waving a weapon.

Usually where mage builds are a concern are gishes of some kind again because their martial side can get pumped to high havens and they get access to caster buffs. Save or suck spells are mostly wasted on mobs and flat out don't work on most bosses either because of insane saves or granted immunities.

And yes I am only talking about PVE side of things because that's 90% of what we do here.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It's one spoke of a multitude of modifications to let the PvE rebalance pendulum have less of an arc of swing for its corrections.

It's a multi pronged problem.

The upward momentum of ceilings and general character power was locked in a race with the PvE content and no particular end in sight. Constant full-book onion'ing of party members isn't just a PvE dungeon only issue, but one seen constantly in DM events and idle presences in social settings. I'm not looking to respond to clickables (potions/wands/scrolls) in this thread, as that's a whole different can of worms that deserves its own thread, the same with frustrations about one's 4/5's, or Lion's Way bandits when these things need to be independently addressed rather than a tie-in to a thread about an overwhelming abundance of pointless spellcasting.

Regarding the tediousness, I'm not in favor of material / objects, but I can see where others are. Presently I'd say to avoid having to create custom objects for every material type and the limits of the player inventories, it's better to just have a generic cost applied upon the spell level casted.

[DiceyCZ]

Ok, I won't speak of the balance then, it's honestly a little hard to see this kind of solution working (or any) when we don't know what will be state of the enemies in the possible PVE rework. Also it will force people to grind more instead of RP, spending more money on getting through events will necessitate grinding because the server economy is shut. Half the lvl 30s sit on couple mil, half has 100k and +3extra/+4 items sell for 5k.

As for "RP" and "pointless" spellcasting everywhere, and this is a personal opinion obviously, I like high magic, I love mages, I like doing pointless stuff magic just for the effect because it's fun. I dunno how many ppl play mages just so they could weigh every spell they cast deciding if it makes them broke or if they gonna have to spend the next day running around collecting ingredients. Even DnD sourcebook barely handles spell components, half the spells material components are meant to be a joke/pun. If you ask me should the spells that in sourcebook cost money have that cost replicated like in PnP then I'll say sure, if you ask me should all spells that use material components, that were not supposed be minded in 99% of situations and mostly amount to fluff, have a cost, I will say no. Now someone might say that in PnP you can rest only 1x a day, which naturally limits spellcasting, but you also usually only have one fight a day if at all.

Now obviously my opinion might not mean much here but as someone who always has and always will play magic users, here's my two cents.

[if you really look at spell components:
Flesh to Stone, components: Lime, water, and earth. (i.e. - concrete, coat your enemies in concrete)

Fireball, components: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur. (i.e. - gunpowder, just throw a bag of gunpowder at people)

See Invisibility, components: A pinch of talc (i.e. - blow white dust in a room so it sticks to invisible things)

Stoneskin, components: Granite and 250 gp worth of diamond dust sprinkled on the target’s skin.(i.e. - diamond coating to resist abrasion)

And the king = Detect thoughts, components: copper piece (i.e. penny for your thoughts)]

[Deathgrowl]

Honestly, this kind of fundamental change shouldn't be posted to public discussion before some level of staff consensus has been agreed on. Now you're just making us think that this is actually something staff in general is for. At least with Goat posting, it is a little bit more clear that this doesn't have staff consensus.

Quite frankly to me personally, it's just causing me anxiety thinking my favourite class is going to get shafted even harder in PvE.

There was also a mention somewhere to have it related to crafting. The absolute worst mistake you can make with crafting in a game (at least a game where crafting isn't the primary focus) is to make it feel necessary. There are literally no games with crafting as a side activity where I actually find the crafting interesting or fun. It's always just a chore.

And that's the crux of material components to spells as well: Don't add chores to a game.

EDIT:
Oh, and as I've said repeatedly for several years now, and even spoke with Goat about recently (to which he ostensibly agreed): This is once again starting in the wrong end. Fix the environment before starting to make character option changes.