Stealth Icon

[JustAnotherGuy]

There needs to be some kind of visual indicator that the spotter would 100% see, that isn't shown mechanically.

We should also put a big eyeball icon above any character that is in Search mode. In the vanilla game there is no way to tell the difference between someone who is just standing there, and someone who is carefully looking around for sneaks. Obviously there needs to be some kind of visual indicator, since there isn't actually an animation to indicate that someone is carefully looking around.

It is not apples to apples. But I do agree. If someone is in search mode, carefully searching, they should absolutely emote as such. Just like when a sneak is doing things a sneak would (sticking to shadows, avoiding sightlines, staying in bushes, keeping a low profile) there should be a way to tell. Since I have not one time in over ten years on a PW seen a sneak emote this (which I get, as it would show the people they are hiding from that they are there), then those who would see them doing this need to know that they are. The options are either a visual indicator, or the sneak emoting it every single time.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Some races have search locked in the on position.

[RoseFrost]

Some races have search locked in the on position.

Sure, elves might permanently be in search mode. But how do you know if a character is an elf? Some of them wear hoods, or even fully enclosed helmets. Since the position of the server seems to be that any remote chance of ambiguity must be eliminated, I think it's only fair that they also get an ugly glowing icon permanently floating above their heads.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Every minute or two, someone in search could have others within perception range notified depending on skill rolls of their active mode. Bluffs vs Sense motives, etc.

[RoseFrost]

Or we could just accept—as every other server in the nineteen year history of this game has, including this one until a few years ago—that attempting to prevent every conceivable case of ambiguity isn't worth subjecting all players to the ugliness of OOC icons floating above their heads which don't even work properly. And if a few bad RPers sneak their characters in plain sight with no cover, then once in a blue moon, they deserve to get embarrassed and called out.

If a few players absolutely must have some kind of feedback mechanism as it relates to stealth, it should be implemented just as the former Appraise feat was. You can right click on a character, press 'Check Stealth Status', and get text in your combat log saying "this character is attempting to hide" or "this character isn't trying to hide." Again, using sense motive vs. bluff because it is a question of intent in the character's mind, not something that is readily observable.

[selhan]

Why would any sneak "Emote" to another player that they are sneaking when they are attempting to spy on them? ???????!!!!!!

That sneak would be meta'd instantly. I seen it many times before. Ppl huddled in a whispering shady conversation, then once a sneak "Emotes" they are sneaking, everyone stfu and changes subject. Only a dumb ass sneak is going to "Emote" they are hiding when trying to eavesdrop on any players. The only time a sneak "Emotes they are sneaking is when their in a DM Event"

The dumb stupid ugly azz Stealth Icon was not wanted by the ones that has to have it floating on their heads! All the players I spoke with, were not asked any input about that icon, not how they feel, not for their suggestions. It was a dictate move by some very half azz suggestions, agreed by everyone BUT the dedicated sneaks that would have to have that stupid icon on their heads.

Now I dont know why this matter is even still going,
The players that play sneaks dont like it..
Dont want it..
Agree for something different or..
a) not as ugly
b) not an icon
c) some system message
d) an sneaky animation
e) etc etc etc etc etc!

You people that dislike the sneak class, really need to get off your hate chair and mind your own gameplay and stop trying to ruin others. Thats low key dirty, cause how about we push for a ugly dookie brown Searching Icon on your heads when ever you got Search activated? Bet yall dont last a single day before the rant of rage comes pouring it. Well guess what, the sneaksters dealt with this stupid icon over a year!

"STOP ALLOWING PERSONAL FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS TO DICTATE AND EFFECT SOMEONE ELSES GAMEPLAY"
"STOP ALLOWING MECHANIC CHANGE THAT DIDNT GET A MAJORITY VOTE BY THOSE THAT WOULD BE EFFECTED"
"STOP ALLOWING CHANGE WITHOUT FINDING OUT WHAT THE COMMUNITY INPUT IS"

I dont know how much more I need to break this down, but let me say this one last time..directly to those thats want a stupid icon over MY characters head..

You want change for your class/character, then speak for your class/character and ask for change to YOUR class/Character ONLY.
You want change about my class/character's mechanics, ASK me and everyone else that plays the same class for our thoughts and input before you go posting and asking for change.
You dont want to be spied on? Fine Take your RP to someplace private and secluded and exercise and utilize all the means the game has to offer to avoid being spied on, instead of being half assed, coming to the Forums and suggesting for that dumb ugly icon on my screen.
If I dont want them to know what I saying, I damn sure wont be talking around a campfire.

PRO Sneaks know that spying has limits without the cheesy Icon. Dumb People dont take their shady/sensitive conversations in a secluded room/private area etc that was inspected and checked.

A FAIL sneaks resort to broken mechanic tactics, trying to hide within objects other than bushes , and try to play off they afk if their spotted.

A FAIL Spotter resorts to exploiting mechanics just to try to detect the one sneaking around them

And if a sneak still manages to slip in the private room undetected right after you, and manages to camp and listen to 2-4 hours of your characters conversation, well god damn, tap yourself on the back because a real professional that knows what he or she is doing, decided to give you that much attention and time, and took advantage of every mishaps and mistakes you made to prevent such a professional from spying on you.

[Ewe]

Hi guys, I got great news. We've heard the feedback about the stealth icon and next patch I'm proud to say we've settled on a new and improved icon. While it's not yet finalized here's an early look:

[DaloLorn]

You want change for your class/character, then speak for your class/character and ask for change to YOUR class/Character ONLY.

That won't work. One of my last remaining characters is a dedicated sneak and I'm still heavily in favor of this system. (Doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to improvement, but I've not seen many proposed improvements that are actually feasible with the tech on hand.)

[JustAnotherGuy]

Hidden: show

Why would any sneak "Emote" to another player that they are sneaking when they are attempting to spy on them? ???????!!!!!!

That sneak would be meta'd instantly. I seen it many times before. Ppl huddled in a whispering shady conversation, then once a sneak "Emotes" they are sneaking, everyone stfu and changes subject. Only a dumb ass sneak is going to "Emote" they are hiding when trying to eavesdrop on any players. The only time a sneak "Emotes they are sneaking is when their in a DM Event"

The dumb stupid ugly azz Stealth Icon was not wanted by the ones that has to have it floating on their heads! All the players I spoke with, were not asked any input about that icon, not how they feel, not for their suggestions. It was a dictate move by some very half azz suggestions, agreed by everyone BUT the dedicated sneaks that would have to have that stupid icon on their heads.

Now I dont know why this matter is even still going,
The players that play sneaks dont like it..
Dont want it..
Agree for something different or..
a) not as ugly
b) not an icon
c) some system message
d) an sneaky animation
e) etc etc etc etc etc!

You people that dislike the sneak class, really need to get off your hate chair and mind your own gameplay and stop trying to ruin others. Thats low key dirty, cause how about we push for a ugly dookie brown Searching Icon on your heads when ever you got Search activated? Bet yall dont last a single day before the rant of rage comes pouring it. Well guess what, the sneaksters dealt with this stupid icon over a year!

"STOP ALLOWING PERSONAL FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS TO DICTATE AND EFFECT SOMEONE ELSES GAMEPLAY"
"STOP ALLOWING MECHANIC CHANGE THAT DIDNT GET A MAJORITY VOTE BY THOSE THAT WOULD BE EFFECTED"
"STOP ALLOWING CHANGE WITHOUT FINDING OUT WHAT THE COMMUNITY INPUT IS"

I dont know how much more I need to break this down, but let me say this one last time..directly to those thats want a stupid icon over MY characters head..

You want change for your class/character, then speak for your class/character and ask for change to YOUR class/Character ONLY.
You want change about my class/character's mechanics, ASK me and everyone else that plays the same class for our thoughts and input before you go posting and asking for change.
You dont want to be spied on? Fine Take your RP to someplace private and secluded and exercise and utilize all the means the game has to offer to avoid being spied on, instead of being half assed, coming to the Forums and suggesting for that dumb ugly icon on my screen.
If I dont want them to know what I saying, I damn sure wont be talking around a campfire.

PRO Sneaks know that spying has limits without the cheesy Icon. Dumb People dont take their shady/sensitive conversations in a secluded room/private area etc that was inspected and checked.

A FAIL sneaks resort to broken mechanic tactics, trying to hide within objects other than bushes , and try to play off they afk if their spotted.

A FAIL Spotter resorts to exploiting mechanics just to try to detect the one sneaking around them

And if a sneak still manages to slip in the private room undetected right after you, and manages to camp and listen to 2-4 hours of your characters conversation, well god damn, tap yourself on the back because a real professional that knows what he or she is doing, decided to give you that much attention and time, and took advantage of every mishaps and mistakes you made to prevent such a professional from spying on you.

The thing is, the sneaks on this thread seem to disagree. Near as I can tell, We have three current sneaks against the system, and four current sneaks for it on this forum thread. And at least one of the sneaks against it did not really say they were against it; they said they were upset it was broken. In addition, we have at least one (perhaps two) former sneaks who quit playing sneaks, in part, because of the immersion breaking that happened when they were spotted, and the spotter didn't know they were in stealth.

Further, I don't think anyone on this forum thread is saying we have to keep that exact icon / mechanic. Rather, they are saying we simply need something, and are open to improved ways of doing it.

Your claim is that all sneaks want to be rid of it, and never wanted it. We have seen on this forum thread that this simply is not true. Perhaps there are more that you have spoken to who did not chime in here on this thread who wish to be rid of it. But I also have anecdotal evidence of sneaks who didn't respond here who think the icon is a god-send.

We also had this same exact conversation just over two years ago. I went through only the first five pages of that thread, and the sneaks in favor of keeping an icon of some kind outnumbered the sneaks who didn't want an icon by about three to one. Then there were several (4-5, some sneaks, some not) who were in favor of keeping the system, but changing the icon. Another icon was tried, but could not be seen easily.

Then, in that discussion, admin ruled that the icon would not be going away, and it was NOT metagaming, as it revealed to the player something their character would notice.

The icon was actually suggested roughly 6 years ago as a response to the issues we were having with sneaks being spotted and no one knowing it. Counter to the claims on this thread, it was suggested that we implement a system as some other servers had done; add the icon above the stealther's head. There were only a few responses back then, but all the sneaks who responded at that point agreed.

[Ewe]

I agree with JustAnotherGuy's post above.

I'm also not sure where the idea comes from that staff doesn't listen to community input. We actually take in so much feedback that it can slow down decision making. Trying to get permission from every individual player for class or mechanics changes isn't really feasible. At some point, we need to be able to make calls without relying on full consensus. Otherwise, nothing ever gets resolved.

Even if it were possible to reach complete agreement on every change, there would still be splits: different groups want different things.

Lastly, I almost always use objective-based and data-driven logic in making decisions. So I'm unsure about that emotions accusation part as well.

[selhan]

You want change for your class/character, then speak for your class/character and ask for change to YOUR class/Character ONLY.

That won't work. One of my last remaining characters is a dedicated sneak and I'm still heavily in favor of this system. (Doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to improvement, but I've not seen many proposed improvements that are actually feasible with the tech on hand.)

The way you play your sneak vs the majority of others is two different things entirely. This is not the first thread that had ppl voice out their dislike of the icon, This is just the "Current" one.

Theres far more ppl against the icon , you people only see three ppl posting and ASSUME its just three. Just as much as its a Druids world to know the feed back of most druids, I play in the world of hipsters and know there are FAR more than just 3 ppl that dislike the current system. Fact is its well over a year, the icon still shitty, still disliked , still not wanted BY DEDICATED sneaks.

Now AGAIN because it seems I need to spell it out over and over again..

Yall want to keep the ugly icon? Fine...make it where its on your SCREEN of the ppl that do want it and not on the screen of those that DONT want it. I dont give squat piss what everyone else sees on their screens or how their GUI look like. Its not my concern either. What Is my concern is what I See ON MY SCREEN. Get it?

Want proposal ? Here some and I dont even need to hesitate..

1, Make the icon Optional to turn off or on ..THAT WAY..For those that hate to see the god damn thing has the option to turn the damn thing off! And for those that want to see the damn thing, they can have it all over their screen!

2, Remove the icon and revert the system to Vanilla

3, Keep the current system and wait another few months, year to see this issue arise again and we can go over this whole damn thing on repeat because some of you...JUST..DONT..UNDERSTAND..that NOT..EVERY..ONE..LIKED..or WANTED..or even agreed to that UGLY..CARTOONY...SHITTY...WEIRD...WONKY...CRINGY..ICON!

The common most average feed back in game about the icon for those that WOULDNT KNOW...goes something like this..

Tell: Whats with the ugly icon when I stealth -.-?

And heres how I normally respond to that...

Tell: Someones idea, the common hipster hate, ppl thought before thinking.

Now please stop pinging me on this thread because its starting to get more annoying than the icon itself.

[Ewe]

As far as I know that's not how a halo SEF works. It's either on or off for everyone. I can't make it off for you but on for them. That's why they said it wasn't a feasible tech solution that has been proposed.

[RoseFrost]

The solution I proposed above would seem to solve this problem for all sides of this? Not even a compromise, just a straight up win-win.

Get rid of the buggy, ugly icon. And replace it with an active feat that spotters can use on characters to gauge whether they are trying to sneak or not. This way you can even get rid of the meta elements of the stealth icon by incorporating Sense Motive vs. Bluff into the check as well.

How it would work:
You see a character. You know they are either not stealthing, or you have detected them.
You right click the character and select 'Check if Stealthing' or whatever
Sense Motive vs. Bluff to test whether you can determine their intention to stealth.
Result gets popped in the combat log

[JustAnotherGuy]

The solution I proposed above would seem to solve this problem for all sides of this? Not even a compromise, just a straight up win-win.

Get rid of the buggy, ugly icon. And replace it with an active feat that spotters can use on characters to gauge whether they are trying to sneak or not. This way you can even get rid of the meta elements of the stealth icon by incorporating Sense Motive vs. Bluff into the check as well.

How it would work:
You see a character. You know they are either not stealthing, or you have detected them.
You right click the character and select 'Check if Stealthing' or whatever
Sense Motive vs. Bluff to test whether you can determine their intention to stealth.
Result gets popped in the combat log

The issue here is that this solution is not a win-win. It would be a minor win for sneaks. It would be a major loss for spotters, and a major win for bluff based non-sneaks.

The reason why, is that in order to spot someone, spotters would have to invest points not only in spot, but also sense motive; a huge loss. While bluff based characters who aren't even sneaks the spotters would not be able to tell if they were in stealth or not.

The spot skill in the "spot v hide" is to see if the person is using behaviors conducive to hiding. Are they remaining in shadows? Are they avoiding sightlines? Does it seem that no one else notices them? These are all things that a spotter's character would be able to see right away with their sharp eyes, but that without some way of being notified, the player has no way of knowing. The roll is already decided by the spot roll.

Sense motive should not be used to determine if someone is trying to hide. This would be obvious to a character with sharp eyes. Sense motive would be to try and discern why they are in stealth. What their motive for being in stealth would be. Does it look as if they are about to pull a prank; does it look as if they are spying; these types of questions. Whether they are trying to remain hidden or not is not a motive question. The motive question is why are they trying to remain hidden?

The claim keeps being that the icon is meta. I claim the opposite. Not having an indicator is very meta. The spotter would 100% know that the spotted stealthed character is trying to hide, based upon the actions they would be taking to hide. However, the player is deprived of this knowledge without an indicator, and thus the stealther is metagaming, whether intentionally or not.

[RoseFrost]

The sense motive vs. bluff thing can be argued. Fine. Just forget it entirely for the moment.

Replace the icon with an active feat that informs the user whether a person is in stealth mode or not. That's it, no rolls involved, it just tells you. That's the solution.

The concern that spotters raise about accidentally revealing a sneak is solved by having this active feat. It would literally take a second or two to avoid this problem on the rare occasion that a person walks up without saying or emoting anything, where you can't tell if you've spotted someone or not. A few seconds vs. constantly having this glowing icon above your head. Which I will remind you again does not work right now.