Stealth Icon

[Goat]

Anyways it's something we can look at. The icon can be changed 'now' if we had a better icon, until we get a better solution, but I'd need one. The delay - I'm not sure if there is anything we can do then, unless Dae can make a plugin to sort it better/cleaner. But the priority atm is EE. Again we can adjust it for now if we want a little. Again - still need something to adjust it too and we'll look at another system after.

I figured it was something like that Dalo, specially due to not being able to hook it until the stealth skill hotbar. It's a shame it works that way if that is true.

[DaloLorn]

I figured it was something like that Dalo, specially due to not being able to hook it until the stealth skill hotbar. It's a shame it works that way if that is true.

You could probably still hook into the mode bar for instant reactions to the stealth button. Hotbars would still be an issue, but hotbarring stealth is mostly only there for convenience and in-combat optimization: In RP, the instant mode bar updates may still be better than nothing.

[RoseFrost]

In terms of a better icon, here is a mock-up I made years ago.

A big part of the problem with this icon is that it isn't affected by the lighting at all. If an area is at all dark, or it's night, the current icon is often the brightest thing visible in the entire area. To the point where a detected-sneaker is actually much more visible to the camera than a non-sneaker standing next to them.

Even then, I think some kind of shadowy dark vfx would be better than an icon, because that at least makes sense for (Ex) HiPS, if less so for (Su) HiPS and normal stealth. VFX is plainly enough when it comes to recognizing that a character is invisible, and in that circumstance other buffs are actually much more likely to obscure that fact.

[Snarfy]

The icon can be changed 'now' if we had a better icon, until we get a better solution, but I'd need one.

In terms of a better icon, here is a mock-up I made years ago.

A big part of the problem with this icon is that it isn't affected by the lighting at all. If an area is at all dark, or it's night, the current icon is often the brightest thing visible in the entire area.

I like the second icon better, for sure, but in a dark/night time scenario it might be very difficult to see.

The only other solution I can imagine would be a vfx at the feet of the character, similar to the magic circle against evil. However, it would need to be of a certain size, not overlapping with other ground vfx, and would, obviously, be very, very obvious.

This is what I would ideally lean towards as well... like I said, a toned down version of Deez's barrier, or some slow swirling mist? Maybe I'll try out some spells on my wizard and see if I can think of anything. But, this avenue sounds like a bit of work for the devs

And now, something occurs to me as a possible solution, after reading the comments regarding DM's needing to be able to discern sneakers in events, hotbars, and plugins:

Would it be possible to make the stealth icon toggle-able with a custom feat? Kind of like the illumination toggle feat. That way, players could switch it on for DM's, or even other players if they so chose. It would also allow players to turn it off for screenshots, or simply disable it because they don't like it. This of course runs the risk that Emmanuel, myself, and others have iterated - in that if it's toggled off there will be no visual indicator for the spotters.

[Goat]

Would it be possible to make the stealth icon toggle-able with a custom feat? Kind of like the illumination toggle feat. That way, players could switch it on for DM's, or even other players if they so chose. It would also allow players to turn it off for screenshots, or simply disable it because they don't like it. This of course runs the risk that Emmanuel, myself, and others have iterated - in that if it's toggled off there will be no visual indicator for the spotters.

No, unfortunately it's not something that is togglable. It's either on for everyone or not at all.

[Goat]

In terms of a better icon, here is a mock-up I made years ago.

A big part of the problem with this icon is that it isn't affected by the lighting at all. If an area is at all dark, or it's night, the current icon is often the brightest thing visible in the entire area. To the point where a detected-sneaker is actually much more visible to the camera than a non-sneaker standing next to them.

Even then, I think some kind of shadowy dark vfx would be better than an icon, because that at least makes sense for (Ex) HiPS, if less so for (Su) HiPS and normal stealth. VFX is plainly enough when it comes to recognizing that a character is invisible, and in that circumstance other buffs are actually much more likely to obscure that fact.

Perhaps in a dark gray then rather then black, but yeah.

[Snarfy]

Would it be possible to make the stealth icon toggle-able with a custom feat? Kind of like the illumination toggle feat. That way, players could switch it on for DM's, or even other players if they so chose. It would also allow players to turn it off for screenshots, or simply disable it because they don't like it. This of course runs the risk that Emmanuel, myself, and others have iterated - in that if it's toggled off there will be no visual indicator for the spotters.

No, unfortunately it's not something that is togglable. It's either on for everyone or not at all.

... damn. I guess I'll putz around on my wizard and check out some shadowy spells. In the meantime, maybe a toned down icon is the least intensive temporary route to explore.

[Ewe]

Hey guys this isn't a perfect solution, but we can have it so that the sneak automatically toggles hostile toward any nonparty member who successfully spots the sneak.

This won't be able to tell the difference though between spotting them or them just toggling hostile on their own without hiding.

Thanks,
Dae

[Ewe]

Okay, I see what's going on. Some players are trying to remove the icon so they can hide from the player's OOC view, bypassing the Spot skill mechanic by clipping into environment objects and similar tricks.

But that's not how hiding is supposed to work in NWN2 or in D&D. The Spot skill determines whether a character is detected, not the OOC eyesight of the player.

Using objects to stay hidden from OOC eyes after a Spot check has already succeeded is metagaming. It ignores the actual mechanics and breaks intended gameplay.

[Snarfy]

Hey guys this isn't a perfect solution, but we can have it so that the sneak automatically toggles hostile toward any nonparty member who successfully spots the sneak.

This won't be able to tell the difference though between spotting them or them just toggling hostile on their own without hiding.

... interesting idea, but that might freak players out and inspire a slew of OOC/tells and unnecessary panic, lol.

I tried out some spells...



... the smoky/shadowy effect might work if it were cranked up halfway, somewhere between the image on the right and shadow shield? But it still might not be discernable enough to differentiate from a buff. Bleh.

I think a modification of the icon is probably an ideal fix for the time being.

[ValerieJean]

Okay, I see what's going on. Some players are trying to remove the icon so they can hide from the player's OOC view, bypassing the Spot skill mechanic by clipping into environment objects and similar tricks.

But that's not how hiding is supposed to work in NWN2 or in D&D. The Spot skill determines whether a character is detected, not the OOC eyesight of the player.

Using objects to stay hidden from OOC eyes after a Spot check has already succeeded is metagaming. It ignores the actual mechanics and breaks intended gameplay.

This is correct; although I may not like the icon, it has its benefits. Because, as Dae said, the spot check means you were seen. Just because the player of the character does not, the character does. Using OOC to hide IC is quite wrong.

VFX, I don't believe, is the right solution as it will just be mixed up with spells.

I don't mind toning the icon down but, I think a colored notification should also pop up that "You spotted so and so" in the combat/chatbox in tandem with the icon

[Snarfy]

Okay, I see what's going on. Some players are trying to remove the icon so they can hide from the player's OOC view, bypassing the Spot skill mechanic by clipping into environment objects and similar tricks.

But that's not how hiding is supposed to work in NWN2 or in D&D. The Spot skill determines whether a character is detected, not the OOC eyesight of the player.

Using objects to stay hidden from OOC eyes after a Spot check has already succeeded is metagaming. It ignores the actual mechanics and breaks intended gameplay.

If my character is in stealth and parks behind a tree or a wall, or even crouches in some tall grass to avoid line of sight, that's not metagaming... it's using terrain to your advantage. Clipping into building walls or inside other static objects that have walkmesh underneath it to obscure your character entirely absolutely IS metagame-y and cheap, I agree. But you will seldom encounter players that utilize this tactic. In a decade plus of playing, I can't remember a single instance where I've witnessed or heard of anyone doing this(and I've seen some outlandish behavior).

[Ewe]

Unfortunately, it is metagaming. The game is designed to let Spot/Listen skill detect Hide/Move Silently. The character's IC eyes/ears would know you are there by Spot/Listen skill. Using video game visuals to trick OOC eyes/ears and OOC eyes/ears alone (not the IC eyes/ears) is by definition metagaming.

[Snarfy]

I don't mind toning the icon down but, I think a colored notification should also pop up that "You spotted so and so" in the combat/chatbox in tandem with the icon

Slippery slopes... I like it, and I don't. Let's say that, using my above example, a sneak is crouching in some tall grass behind a giant boulder AND a tree, offering zero line of sight to the spotter. Bing, they get a combat log notification that they spotted someone... right through the tree and the boulder? That sounds like a huge advantage for the spotter, like... insta-win x-ray vision type advantage, and totally negates any effort made by the sneak. Actively spotting and being aware of your surroundings should require more effort than that, which is managed easily enough by simply moving your camera around.

Unfortunately, it is metagaming. The game is designed to let Spot/Listen skill detect Hide/Move Silently. The character's IC eyes/ears would know you are there by Spot/Listen skill. Using video game visuals to trick OOC eyes/ears and OOC eyes/ears alone (not the IC eyes/ears) is by definition metagaming.

So... hiding behind trees and the like is metagaming. Good to know. I'll keep that in mind the next time my character is getting pegged by a dozen PC/NPC arrows and promptly hide out in the nearest open field.

[Ewe]

Yes it is. At any DND table if I told the DM I'm using this tree to listen in on these people. The DM would say "Okay roll a hide check for me." They aren't going to say well that's a clever use of terrain you get a free pass here. That's using the video game itself to hide without hiding, it's metagaming for sure.