Rebalance Skill modifiers

[Quartz]

Sounds like the discussion shifted quite a bit. From people advocating because of not being able to shine in DM events to PvP concerns. But it's fine, I guess.

Some of us is just at a point, we really dont like our builds being messed with. Countless rcr's, spamming for DM assistance , equipment change etc.. Im sorry but Im done with all that. I prefer no change. Frustrating to build for skills only to later have to rebuild another way? no thank you and yes its true, some of us just like numbers.

Things get changed for the better in the long run. This isn't an argument that you enjoy numbers. I get it - but all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot by needing 'all stealth gear', 'all rp gear'. Etc. If the cap right now is Let's say 96 Hide, and the Spot is capped at 96 Spot - Then there is absolutely no difference mechanical wise if both lost -25 due to stacking not existing.

Logically in RP but non-DM scenarios people with spot gear are equipping that gear on at the same 'moments' when sneakers are sneaking around trying to milk information. And this change isn't going to suddenly make people who have no skill points in spot be able to find better just by the gear alone. I'd say that currently the system allows that MORE, because EVERYONE and ANYONE can beef up your spot to max amount, even if you don't invest in it. I'm pretty sure there would be less people spotting you - not more.

Only there is a huge difference. Largely due to existence of the epic gear shop and partly because a lot of rogues are pretty similar, sneak gear is usually uniform and well-adjusted to their needs and is not that hard to tweak. Same can't be said about spot/listen gear. You are either forced to don gear that negatively impacts your combat performance or you become a very narrow specialist. If both sneaker and person trying to detect them will lose 25 points due to item cap, it will benefit detector immensely by making it easier for them to manage their gear while not giving sneak much in terms of benefits.

[DaloLorn]

Another problem that I won't touch unless this changes is how spot vs search work. Search mode checking 5 times a second is insane. The 1d20 dice roll on top of your SPOT vs HIDE skill is absolutely pointless currently. Currently if you have 100 hide, and they have 80 spot, they'd need a nat 20 to see you. This is a 5% per chance. However because it's so quick, you're looking at in the first second, being found with a 22.62% chance. Within 5 seconds, its 72.26%. Within 10 seconds, its 92.31%.

This is a dire misunderstanding. Dae did some research while I was still on staff, and posted about it in the public Discord, to boot. There's two separate intervals in play here.

• You test your Spot/Listen results against anyone in range once every 200ms. This high interval is intended to capture changes in circumstantial modifiers, equipment, and line-of-sight (including coming close enough to be seen).
• But you update (i.e. roll a new d20) those results once every 6 seconds. Likewise, the sneak rolls their d20 on a 6-second interval. The Search skill, specifically, will reroll on a 3-second interval while in Search Mode, but this is irrelevant to stealth and only affects traps.
• Additionally, only half of your perception result is used while you're out of Search Mode, and your perception rolls use a d10 instead of a d20. This means even a middling sneak is functionally invisible to any creature that's not currently in Search Mode (and doesn't have Keen Senses).

Frankly, the stats wouldn't work out quite like that even if you had understood it correctly, because you forgot to factor the sneak's opposing rolls into your probabilities, but it's much more egregious when you follow the NWN2 wiki's misguided notions of how the system works.

[selhan]

If the cap right now is Let's say 96 Hide, and the Spot is capped at 96 Spot - Then there is absolutely no difference mechanical wise if both lost -25 due to stacking not existing.

I get that, although like you mentioned, the person searching is constantly rolling, not the one hiding. That's a topic of unfairness which should warrant more attention. But like others said, some of us already spent "Years" and I'm seriously meaning "Years" of effort in them dungeons repeatedly. It took a whole lotta time for some of us to get use to the pve content on this sever and find a combination of character builds and equipment to find our comfort zone. Note I said some of us. Theres a handful of people with 30s that hasnt even experienced everything the server has to offer.

Like is it really that much of a necessary? In what people do, day to day on this server? is that really much of a necessary that warrants such a change? Is it really bothering folks that much? Most of us are at a point we dont need to care about gear any more other then some nice DM written one with some cool lore to it and much rather focus on Rp amongst each other and DM events. That in itself was a satisfying relief to some.

I just got my hands on an item that I been hoping to get again from back in the early days of this server. Its a nerf version of what it was but the feeling was more sentiment and the stats increased my numbers. And now I gotta worry the stats on it is going to be worthless? sense of accomplishment just got tossed. In my opinion, so what if people like big numbers. If thats their kink so be it. They lose out on other skills to focus on some primaries. Thats the balance of pros and cons.

Some of us dont want to have to do another rebuild ever again. Others get off on it. Wheres the middle ground? I dont really like speaking for others, but yall make it so that I dont have to touch an rcr option again, or slave myself in dungeons again for change and my character build will still work as intended, then you got my vote. Otherwise I lean to dont change.

[zhazz]

Personally, if I were playing a Sneak character, I'd prefer to have a wide range of options for my equipment without hurting my Hide / Move Silently. Be able to gear for a specific scenario as it were. If I am going to a place where enemies spam a lot of Cold spells, I'd prefer to be able to put on a 15/- DR Cold item, and possibly an item or two with +X to Saves vs Cold/Evocation. But I wouldn't be able to, because that means losing out on +10 to +12 in Hide / Move Silently, which is my bread-and-butter.

Of course I can get the mentioned benefits through magic (Scrolls, Potions, Elixirs, an ally). Not having to rely on those, however, by having gearing options, would be preferable. At least for me.

Characters with more innate talent can also buy the same types of gear as characters with less talent. A master of their trade should not be without their tools. Stealth toons should be geared toward stealth, appraisers towards appraising, etc.

Fully agree on this one. Where it breaks down, at least for me, is when someone puts a single point into e.g. Lore: The Planes, then equips items with bonuses to Lore: The Planes, and are now on par with (or higher than) someone who put 33 points into Lore: The Planes, who isn't wearing gear with bonuses. Then later on it's Lore: Local that is being called for, and the same thing happens. The one with lots of gold keeps pace or outperforms the one building specifically for it. Why? Because that person carries a wardrobe of outfits for every situation?

Anyway. Short version of my argument is that I think it's only fair that those who specialize in specific skills via their build shouldn't be worse off than those who, and I apologize for the slight jab, "cheese" the rolls with swapping item sets. Builds are a lot more difficult to change than going to the stores/Mudd to pick up gear with bonuses.




As an aside, I think JustAnotherGuy raised a valid point previously. Skill bonuses from items do no transfer over when shapeshifting. Yet you are supposed to retain your mental abilities and knowledge while shapeshifted. So a druid with e.g. a Lore: Nature skill of 80 shapeshifts into a dragon, and is now suddenly only at 50. That would at least be lessened (not fixed) by reducing the maximum augment bonus to skills

[Steve]

My 2 cents is that Skill checks and Difficulty Class just got out of and always has been off the rails. Just see below for D&D 3.5e DCs:

I like big numbers, it's fun. But probably the best solution for everyone—from Players getting "good" gear to DMs setting DCs AND for setting up mobs/NPCs—is to remove skill stacking from Items, and adjust whatever Opposed Skill Checks as necessary on mobs/bosses/NPCs.

Because the inflated everything on BGTSCC might seem exciting, but it only makes it more difficult. More difficult to set fair challenges, more difficult to acquire items with appropriate skills, more skewed to power building, more godlike PCs than in necessary to have a good time role-playing.

[Quartz]

Characters with more innate talent can also buy the same types of gear as characters with less talent. A master of their trade should not be without their tools. Stealth toons should be geared toward stealth, appraisers towards appraising, etc.

Fully agree on this one. Where it breaks down, at least for me, is when someone puts a single point into e.g. Lore: The Planes, then equips items with bonuses to Lore: The Planes, and are now on par with (or higher than) someone who put 33 points into Lore: The Planes, who isn't wearing gear with bonuses. Then later on it's Lore: Local that is being called for, and the same thing happens. The one with lots of gold keeps pace or outperforms the one building specifically for it. Why? Because that person carries a wardrobe of outfits for every situation?

Anyway. Short version of my argument is that I think it's only fair that those who specialize in specific skills via their build shouldn't be worse off than those who, and I apologize for the slight jab, "cheese" the rolls with swapping item sets. Builds are a lot more difficult to change than going to the stores/Mudd to pick up gear with bonuses.



As an aside, I think JustAnotherGuy raised a valid point previously. Skill bonuses from items do no transfer over when shapeshifting. Yet you are supposed to retain your mental abilities and knowledge while shapeshifted. So a druid with e.g. a Lore: Nature skill of 80 shapeshifts into a dragon, and is now suddenly only at 50. That would at least be lessened (not fixed) by reducing the maximum augment bonus to skills

If you are concerned about something, it's better to look for options that would achieve the desired result without hurting other players. Don't like that people can get +skill items from the second hand shop? Propose to abolish the second hand shop. Annoyed that people switch gear? Propose to ban this kind of behavior. Want DMs to only account for base skills when it comes to lore? Ask DMs to look only at the base lore skill. Even though I strongly disagree with the fact that having skills on gear is somehow less than having a character put points in skills. Having gear accounts for tools, magic enchantments and etc. The only difference is that bonuses to your skill go away when you take the gear off. Practically, there is no difference between your character putting points in a skill on a level up and using gear. If a person with innate 15 points in lore and 15 points in lore from gear/magic/etc can achieve the same result, there is nothing wrong with that.

Also, do you somehow think that you will "force" DMs to act accordingly if you change mechanics IG? If the cap is lowered, what is stopping DM from counting bonuses on gear beyond the cap? You people forget that Dnd is based on good faith and cooperative RP. We used to RP disguises and various lore skills long before the actual skills were introduced.

[Mork]

I think it's important to remember all is up to DM interpretation. They can literally interpret someone's roll if 2 as better than a others 9999 for example in lore check if they know some char has better understanding of the topic simply cause of stuff in his bio or even any completely abstract reason they come up with
As far as I know there is no guidelines DM would be FORCED to follow. Doesn't seem like they even need to go with general DND rules. At least not 1:1 rulelawyer style.
Personally I always go with bio first. Example: ship navigation. Roll of 87 for geography doesn't mean anything if character has written in his bio that hes a cartographer specializing on land that never traveled by sea and would have no clue about naval navigation. On the other hand roll of 15 of a sailor is enough to steer a ship in roughly fine direction.

If you feel your character is an expert in something perhaps pointing out that to a DM will help if you have bio approved but it is entirely to DM.

Rolls mean only as much as DM interpreting them wants to

[zhazz]

My 2 cents is that Skill checks and Difficulty Class just got out of and always has been off the rails. Just see below for D&D 3.5e DCs:

I like big numbers, it's fun. But probably the best solution for everyone—from Players getting "good" gear to DMs setting DCs AND for setting up mobs/NPCs—is to remove skill stacking from Items, and adjust whatever Opposed Skill Checks as necessary on mobs/bosses/NPCs.

Because the inflated everything on BGTSCC might seem exciting, but it only makes it more difficult. More difficult to set fair challenges, more difficult to acquire items with appropriate skills, more skewed to power building, more godlike PCs than in necessary to have a good time role-playing.

I think that would be an excellent option. I also know it will get a lot of push-back from the people who have spent years to amass various items to get into the 90+ range, and now consider it wasted effort. I'd consider it wasted effort too, though accept it because I think it's a net benefit.

Having gear accounts for tools, magic enchantments and etc. The only difference is that bonuses to your skill go away when you take the gear off. Practically, there is no difference between your character putting points in a skill on a level up and using gear. If a person with innate 15 points in lore and 15 points in lore from gear/magic/etc can achieve the same result, there is nothing wrong with that.

Gear representing tools is absolutely fine in my opinion. So is using magic to augment skills. Magic, however, accounts for a much smaller increase than items/tools.

Shifting to a real-world example for a moment.
To me, having 1 point in Driving means you have just passed your driver's exam and gotten your license. Having 25 points in Driving means you have several years of experience, including race cars. Both drivers can operate a Ford Fiesta, but only the one with 25 in Driving has the knowledge and experience to operate a Formula-1 race car.

Magic might augment innate knowledge, but some tools (items) are beyond your ability to apply successfully without appropriate experience and/or training.

Also, do you somehow think that you will "force" DMs to act accordingly if you change mechanics IG? If the cap is lowered, what is stopping DM from counting bonuses on gear beyond the cap?

If the cap is e.g. 15, and a character is wearing a total of +30, and a DM wants to inspect every single character to tally up the bonuses, then I guess that's the prerogative of the DM. I don't see any DMs doing that, however, as it's a huge hassle that slows down events.

I think it's important to remember all is up to DM interpretation. They can literally interpret someone's roll if 2 as better than a others 9999 for example in lore check if they know some char has better understanding of the topic simply cause of stuff in his bio or even any completely abstract reason they come up with
As far as I know there is no guidelines DM would be FORCED to follow.

Personally I always go with bio first. Example: ship navigation. Roll of 87 for geography doesn't mean anything if character has written in his bio that hes a cartographer specializing on land that never traveled by sea and would have no clue about naval navigation. On the other hand roll of 15 of a sailor is enough to steer a ship in roughly fine direction.

If you feel your character is an expert in something perhaps pointing out that to a DM will help if you have bio approved but it is entirely to DM.

Rolls mean only as much as DM interpreting them wants to

Fully agree that several skills lack nuance. Unfortunately the skill system doesn't support skill categories. Would be awesome if it did, but that's an entirely different topic with its own pros and cons.

In the end it is, as you say, up to DM interpretation. Being a DM is a tough job as it is, and I for one would prefer they spend their time running events and doing cool things for us, rather than checking biographies and character examines to verify a character's knowledge.

[DaloLorn]

If you are concerned about something, it's better to look for options that would achieve the desired result without hurting other players. Don't like that people can get +skill items from the second hand shop? Propose to abolish the second hand shop.

I find it awfully convenient how that option keeps existing outliers while making it harder for newcomers to catch up... not that the second-hand shop is likely to be the main source of high-end RIG items, considering the middling CR it's configured for, but it's the principle of the thing that really caught my eye.

[Deragnost]

No. Just no.

If we really want to limit the skills, I stand with Goat point, but feats and items still require to give support. You want to limit it to 15 bonus from items, like the amount of Dodge AC in parry mode? Sure.

Denying it altogether is just a big no.

[DaloLorn]

Feats aren't subject to the cap anyway, nor should they be. Any proposal against skill/save stacking targets buffs from spells, SLAs, and items only.

[Steve]

I also know it will get a lot of push-back from the people who have spent years to amass various items to get into the 90+ range, and now consider it wasted effort. I'd consider it wasted effort too, though accept it because I think it's a net benefit.

I too understand that it would feel as if losing something—namely RL time investment—should Skill bonuses stop stacking, as I've played a Character that utilizes Feint to succeed in combat, and boy o boy has it been years of difficulty and hopefulness trying to pad out a build with Items granting Bluff bonuses!!!

But that's the thing: it sucks ass to have to do this, to spend years investing RL time to maybe just maybe get a full set of gear that buffs ones toon to acceptable levels of Skill. It is simple bad design. And it is ridiculous to ask players to do this. A stop should be put to it.

Continuing on a path that was never smart to begin with isn't the best practice.

[Goat]

• You test your Spot/Listen results against anyone in range once every 200ms. This high interval is intended to capture changes in circumstantial modifiers, equipment, and line-of-sight (including coming close enough to be seen).
• But you update (i.e. roll a new d20) those results once every 6 seconds. Likewise, the sneak rolls their d20 on a 6-second interval. The Search skill, specifically, will reroll on a 3-second interval while in Search Mode, but this is irrelevant to stealth and only affects traps.
• Additionally, only half of your perception result is used while you're out of Search Mode, and your perception rolls use a d10 instead of a d20. This means even a middling sneak is functionally invisible to any creature that's not currently in Search Mode (and doesn't have Keen Senses).

Frankly, the stats wouldn't work out quite like that even if you had understood it correctly, because you forgot to factor the sneak's opposing rolls into your probabilities, but it's much more egregious when you follow the NWN2 wiki's misguided notions of how the system works.

Ah okay - so you only roll a new spot die vs hide die every 6 seconds. And the 200ms is only for checking when people get in sight/equipment changes/etc then? I mean that makes more sense then to me. Right I suppose both get dice rolls too.

I mean if that's how it 'does' work then it's probably okay as it is for the actual system, it's less confusing this way. But I assume then both spotter vs hider get a 1d20 roll. But for your additional comment - you're saying perception is literally cut in half, that's kind of surprising. I guess I get the reason though. It just seems a little confusing and if you didn't know the system you'd have no clue. I'm assuming not alot of people know how it works too then.

--

No. Just no.

If we really want to limit the skills, I stand with Goat point, but feats and items still require to give support. You want to limit it to 15 bonus from items, like the amount of Dodge AC in parry mode? Sure.

Denying it altogether is just a big no.

Alternatively the cap could be less - and you still allow stacking - yeah. That would be the middle ground - I guess. You'd still have to rebalance some feats.

[JustAnotherGuy]

On the note of spotter v hider (and I don't know if this sways anyone's opinion either way, just an observation), we did testing with Emmanuel and Hinzel.

At the time, Emmanuel had 80 spot. Hinzel buffed to the cap of 100 hide. When Hinzel hid, Emmanuel saw him within a few rounds every time. However, when Hinzel was hostiled to Emmanuel, Emmanuel could not see him at all. This leads me to believe the commonly held belief that the hider only gets their d20 rolls whenever they are hostile to the target.

The reason that this is relevant is that sneaks are not allowed (per PVP rules) to just hostile someone on a whim in order to stay hidden (and also the act of hostiling someone alerts the player to your presence). This means that sneaks are at a disadvantage until they are able to hostile someone.

But the reason that this become very pertinent to the discussion, is that for sneaks to remain hidden 100%, they have to be 21+ levels over the spotter. Currently, spotters can get to about the 85 mark feasibly (although admittedly sacrificing quite a lot to do so), while sneaks can get up to 100 (with the same restrictions.) If we were to lower the numbers, then spotters would have an even bigger advantage, allowing spotters to have to invest much less into their spotting. The only reason that sneaks can get higher than spotters right now is due to item stacking. If sneaks and spotters could get to the same maximum as each other, I could drop 20 points in my spot and still see them.

I know that this might seem a bit odd, a dedicated spotter actually speaking in favor of the sneaks, but I want us to consider all angles of a proposition such as this. With that being said, I am still in favor of it; I just wanted to point out another issue.

[Garnet]

If we were to lower the numbers, then spotters would have an even bigger advantage, allowing spotters to have to invest much less into their spotting. The only reason that sneaks can get higher than spotters right now is due to item stacking. If sneaks and spotters could get to the same maximum as each other, I could drop 20 points in my spot and still see them.

To just flat out saying it without dancing around the subject, this is honestly my biggest fear and why I've been passionately against this change. We sneaks have it rough already with the exception of stealth which we dedicate our characters life too. For many of us, our RP is focused around this-- spying, intrigue, and being an unseen shadow.

From an RP perspective the skill cap idea is a huge slap in the face for us in that regard and really hurts our play style. A core change like this (from a sneaks perspective) feels to be on par with telling a wizard/cleric that 'we are cutting your spell book in half' because those spells can't be made into wands and therefore its not fair to non-casters, or those that don't dedicate theirselves to magic'. I know us sneaks are mostly a minority now, so I guess I understand the change 'for the greater good' mentality.... but I feel It will quite literally break the game/RP for me at least

I know that this might seem a bit odd, a dedicated spotter actually speaking in favor of the sneaks, but I want us to consider all angles of a proposition such as this. With that being said, I am still in favor of it; I just wanted to point out another issue.

I just wanted to say a heart felt thank you for keeping us sneaks into consideration!