The same old discussion about server balance

[Sean Maxhell]

I'm sure this topic has been covered many times before, probably even by me in other threads, but given my recent experiences on the server, I want to recap the situation.
Of course, I’ll only talk about content from level 30 onward.

The server balance is stupid and poorly done.
There are plenty of workarounds and tricks to overcome and raid high-level areas—the point is, the player shouldn’t be encouraged to use exploits but should instead enjoy the experience of exploration by facing the challenges the area offers.
If the player has to "cheat" to experience what the server has to offer, then the problem lies with the server and its balance, not the player.

I know the server aims to be heavily focused on roleplay, but the reality is, there are also players who prefer action and exploration over sitting still for hours staring at the same screen and typing. You’ll never get rid of these players—they exist, period. Get over it.

The other day, I cleared Skull Gorge solo. A place full of orcs wielding double axes who deal 100 critical damage per round. Seriously, what the hell? Why should I put up with this crap? So I "cheated"—I avoided them all, picked every single one of their chests until the end. It took me two hours. For what? Practically nothing. I hated every moment of it. A horrible, poorly balanced experience. A terrible job.

Why should I waste my time admiring the work done by mappers across the server—everything they’ve created and programmed—when the most rewarding area on the server remains Reaching Wood? There are 8 chests and a boss at Reaching Wood, the enemies are relaxing to fight, and they can drop epic items.
If I play NWN, it’s because I want to relax—otherwise, I’d still be playing League of Legends.
Why would I even consider going to another area? Oh, right—because it takes me 15 minutes to clear all of Reaching Wood, and then I have to wait six hours.
So what do I do after that? The right choice would be to play something else.

Okay, but why do I grind? To become more powerful.
What’s the point of being more powerful? To be able to play this game peacefully, without cheating, in other areas of the server, and not have to stare at the same screen in the same area all the time.
But how can you be more powerful than three orcs dealing 100 critical damage per round? You can’t. There are no epic drops that allow you to achieve that goal.

Will I return to Skull Gorge? To Pirate Island? The Frost Giant Fortress? The Speartop dungeon? No. I explored them because I wanted to see the work put into the server. Did I enjoy it? Hell no.
Will I go back? It’s absolutely not worth it. The quality-to-time ratio is so disadvantageous it’s nonexistent. The loot didn’t feel any better than anywhere else.

So, is the problem the loot? No.
The problem is having to close the game and stop playing because there’s nothing left to do on the server except stress yourself out or waste your time being bored.

I play NWN2 because it’s still the best game ever conceived, and this server is the last bastion where you can enjoy it. So don’t ask stupid questions like why I’m still here.

[Rinzler]

Skull Gorge and Pirate Islands are quite well balanced in my opinion. They aren’t really meant to be soloed but at the very least they require a certain an amount of strategy beyond “LEEROY JENKINS.” There are plenty of CR 25+ areas with good loot that you can run solo. If you want to run the former, bring a friend (or two).

For what it’s worth, Skull Gorge used to be considerably more difficult, but has been recently toned down. The staff are active in trying to make balanced and fun content, but again, not everything is meant to be run on auto-pilot.

I also sense a general hostility from your post that is quite inappropriate.

[blazerules]

Can you elaborate on having nothing to do but stress out when there is down time? I kinda get the whole bored bit since if no one is on you dont have much to do or interact with but stressed is a new one?

I don't do any dungeon raiding, at all. Mostly because I hate the PvE and would rather PvE was completely and utterly removed from the server but we have nothing to replace that with and some people enjoy said gameplay loop. Im not crazy enough to think it's a good idea. But I cant say Id even imagine what would be a stress point?

And yeah none of the 30+ level areas are, in any way shape or form, designed for Solo play.

Skull Gorge and Pirate Islands are quite well balanced in my opinion.

Can confirm through what my friends told me. I only ever hear good things about it and how it is super well balanced, fun to play and generally probably the best balanced dungeon on the entire server. It all naturally depends on party composition but Id wager if you go in alone you're going to have a bad time, as you should.

[MissClick]

This is the first and only warning that will be given for this topic: discuss, but be mindful of tone.

The insults and hostility are unnecessary. Thank you.

[Sean Maxhell]

Skull Gorge and Pirate Islands are quite well balanced in my opinion. They aren’t really meant to be soloed but at the very least they require a certain an amount of strategy beyond “LEEROY JENKINS.” There are plenty of CR 25+ areas with good loot that you can run solo. If you want to run the former, bring a friend (or two).

For what it’s worth, Skull Gorge used to be considerably more difficult, but has been recently toned down. The staff are active in trying to make balanced and fun content, but again, not everything is meant to be run on auto-pilot.

I also sense a general hostility from your post that is quite inappropriate.

I'm sorry if I seem hostile—I just try to keep my points direct and concise.
I need to ask the AI that translates my texts not to make them sound hostile.

You claim there are many CR25+ areas with good loot designed for solo players, but according to the server list on the wiki, that’s simply not true.
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Areas_by_CR

Here’s my evaluation of the areas:

Surface Level 21-25: How good is the loot in these areas? Is it really worth the time for a level 30 character?

21 Searing Tunnels and Searing Caverns: Where is this? I don’t think I know it.

21 Cloakwood North-West, Haunted House Level 3: Only the third floor is worth it, and it takes less than two minutes to clear. The loot often isn’t worth the travel time.

22 Crystal Cave (entrance at exterior Naskhel Iron Mines map): Does it still exist? I recently tried to go to the mines and found them closed. I didn’t check the cave. Too few chests to justify the time and effort, anyway.

22 Durlag's Labyrinth Level 3 & 4: I haven’t been there recently, but these are areas you do once while leveling and never return to because they’re too tedious.

23 Trollclaws, Old Mine: Not sure where this is. Is it the one with ogres? Too few containers and points of interest on a linear path.

23 High Moor, Spirit Troll Cave: I have no idea where this is.

23 Wyrm's Cave: Don’t think I know this one either.

23 Yuan-ti Temple: A maze of boredom and inconsistency.

23 Reaching Woods: Enemies that drop often, manageable even in groups, 8 chests and a boss. Epic loot possible. Open map with freedom of movement, cleared in ten minutes despite its size. Best map on the server.

23 Lizard Cave: Don’t think I know this one.

23–24 Elder Ogre Stronghold (Trollclaws): You do it once and never return. A labyrinth of uselessness and wasted time.

24 Cloudpeaks - Lich Cave: Quick to clear, making it worth the little time needed to loot the three chests and the boss. The loot quality doesn’t impress me, though.

24 Vault Level 1: Spread out, few weak enemies, few chests. Not worth entering.

24 Forest of Wyrms: Only good for reaching Lyran's Hold.

25 Vault Level 2: Same as Level 1, with the added hassle of wasting time in Level 1 to get there.

Surface Level 26-30

26 Ziggurat: Probably the second-best area on the server: 15 chests and several gold piles. Enemies manageable solo or easily avoidable. The dracolich boss is very doable solo. The only flaw is the black dragon final boss, which is unbeatable and hard to manage due to its size and command clutter. It makes sense for a named dragon to be unbeatable solo, but it shouldn’t be here, as its treasure is often mediocre.

26+ Cliffside Keep (CR increases as you descend): I’ve been looking for this area and still don’t know where it is.

27 Frost Giants Castle: Horrible. Enemies too strong for the few chests. Even if you can solo the Jarl, the effort isn’t worth it.

28 Speartop: Same as the Frost Giants Castle, but worse. More effort required for fewer treasures. The white dragon, like the black one, should guard better loot.

29 Vault Level 3: Explored it briefly. Died there and never returned. Enemies are much stronger and more numerous. Not worth revisiting, especially since you waste time in the upper levels first.

29 Netherese Maze: No idea where this is.

30 Lyran's Hold: Quick to complete, 7 chests, which is great. Enemies are balanced except for the boss, who is a joke—a character with millions of HP, nearly unhittable, dealing 50 magic and 100 sonic damage per round, dispelling your protections even if you have them. Organizing a party to kill him and loot the mediocre treasure from his 3 chests is a farce. The boss ruins the whole experience, so I just avoid him, loot his chests, and leave.

30 Graypeaks: I checked out the exterior the other day. You can loot all the chests without fighting anyone, but it’s tedious, boring, and long. Not worth it solo, as the loot doesn’t come close to justifying the effort.

I’ll add Pirate Island and Skull Gorge: Despite a decent number of chests, the time required to clear them isn’t worth it. The loot isn’t better than elsewhere. Even though I can kill everything on Pirate Island, bosses included, doubling the number of chests might make it worthwhile. Skull Gorge is just awful. Plain awful. If I have to spend time organizing a group to assault this place, the chests should at least be tripled to justify forming a party.

In conclusion, I don’t consider the areas I listed to be numerous.
Some, unfortunately, are simply unappealing and boring to explore.
I’m not asking for an increase in loot quality—what I believe is missing is the enjoyability of the experience.

From what I’ve seen, balancing dungeon length, loot quantity, and enemy difficulty, many areas feel unbalanced.
I’m not necessarily saying the number of loot containers should be increased—lowering enemy difficulty would also work.

In longer dungeons like Pirate Island and Skull Gorge, I believe more safe resting areas are needed. Not because they can’t be completed solo, but so I’m not forced to 'cheat' or come up with workarounds just to finish them.

[Sean Maxhell]

Can you elaborate on having nothing to do but stress out when there is down time? I kinda get the whole bored bit since if no one is on you dont have much to do or interact with but stressed is a new one?

I don't do any dungeon raiding, at all. Mostly because I hate the PvE and would rather PvE was completely and utterly removed from the server but we have nothing to replace that with and some people enjoy said gameplay loop. Im not crazy enough to think it's a good idea. But I cant say Id even imagine what would be a stress point?

And yeah none of the 30+ level areas are, in any way shape or form, designed for Solo play.

Skull Gorge and Pirate Islands are quite well balanced in my opinion.

Can confirm through what my friends told me. I only ever hear good things about it and how it is super well balanced, fun to play and generally probably the best balanced dungeon on the entire server. It all naturally depends on party composition but Id wager if you go in alone you're going to have a bad time, as you should.

If you don’t like PvE, we’re two completely different people. I can respect your opinion, but I believe you should respect mine as well.

Unfortunately, I’m here because I love this game, and ultimately, this server is the only place that can still offer a good experience with Neverwinter Nights 2.

As I’ve already said, I know the server is focused on roleplay.
But BGTSCC is the last true bastion where you can enjoy this game.
Driving away PvE lovers from the server essentially means forcing these people to stop playing altogether.

The people running the server should be more aware of this—the fact that they’re keeping a beautiful, twenty-year-old game alive—and I’m grateful to them for that.
But precisely because they are the last ones keeping the game alive, they should recognize that this is a video game, and as such, it needs broader gameplay designed to satisfy all the survivors of this marvelous game.

[blazerules]

It didn't seem hostile, it was very clearly hostile and did not contribute to making your points direct nor concise if anything it was the opposite. Regardless...

CR as the page itself states doesn't mean you can do the thing at X level. It's a general marker for a party of this level can theoretically handle this zone. And yes you can solo it depending on your build. Just as someone can solo the hardest boss on the server naked depending on their build. You really need to know what you're doing though.

"The stated CR of some areas is quite wildly different from the real difficulty."

25+ CR being "good for loot" mostly just means the loot isn't going to be downgraded to 25gp. That's pretty much all it means since eventually you out level chests and they stop dropping anything but a bit of gp. Maybe the note needs to be updated to be a lot more clear on what CR means.

You essentially tried to solo a WoW 40 man raid alone, and said the balance is bad.

If you don’t like PvE, we’re two completely different people. I can respect your opinion, but I believe you should respect mine as well.

Never said I don't, if anything I clearly stated some people enjoy the content.

[Sean Maxhell]

It didn't seem hostile, it was very clearly hostile and did not contribute to making your points direct nor concise if anything it was the opposite. Regardless...

CR as the page itself states doesn't mean you can do the thing at X level. It's a general marker for a party of this level can theoretically handle this zone. And yes you can solo it depending on your build. Just as someone can solo the hardest boss on the server naked depending on their build. You really need to know what you're doing though.

"The stated CR of some areas is quite wildly different from the real difficulty."

25+ CR being "good for loot" mostly just means the loot isn't going to be downgraded to 25gp. That's pretty much all it means since eventually you out level chests and they stop dropping anything but a bit of gp. Maybe the note needs to be updated to be a lot more clear on what CR means.

You essentially tried to solo a WoW 40 man raid alone, and said the balance is bad.

If you don’t like PvE, we’re two completely different people. I can respect your opinion, but I believe you should respect mine as well.

Never said I don't, if anything I clearly stated some people enjoy the content.

You say I’m hostile, but I truly don’t know how else to express myself.

First of all, I didn’t just attempt a 40-player instance—I completed this so-called “40-player instance.”
But let’s leave WoW aside—that, to me, really is a pointless and boring game.

It didn’t feel at all like I was tackling an epic-level encounter.
My character is literally the herald of a god—not in terms of lore, because I’m not interested in developing that kind of storyline for him—but statistically, he is. So why should he struggle to raid a pirate island or an orc hideout?

I don’t feel any sense of epicness facing dungeons with such settings.
Let’s be honest—orcs and pirates should cap at CR15 at most.
If I had entered an area guarded by devils and demons, then I would have felt the epic scale and respected it—maybe even genuinely organized an epic mission with other players.
But pirates and orcs? Sorry, it just feels like I’m being mocked and belittled.

That said, since you’re not a PvE enthusiast, I don’t believe you’ll ever truly understand what I value in this game.
And honestly, unless the server staff decide to kick us PvE players out, we’ll need to find a way to coexist in a satisfying way—because right now, I have zero desire to go back to grinding my nerves on League of Legends.

I hope the AI is translating in a non-hostile manner.

[blazerules]

It's important to understand that "In Character" none of our characters are level 30 or "Epic". As such pirates and orcs are perfectly in line with what we should be facing on the high end.

We are, in character, level 20 I believe? And the high end threats on the server represent this. Regardless it is up to each individual server how they'd like to represent high level areas, be it dragons (which we never should and was a mistake with say the Frost Wyrm) or rats.

So no your character isn't a "literal herald of a god" he is at best some random somewhat strong adventurer.

Demons and devils are more of a near region ending event that would require coordination of multiple guilds. In fact we had this, and it was a threat that needed the involvement of the City of Baldurs Gate.

Eitherway this is purely philosophical and irrelevant to game balance as we can replace all enemies with the appearance of rats and your issue was one of balance rather than appearance of the enemies. I will agree that these two zones need to be added to the Areas by CR. And we need better marking of zones in game rather than having to look on the wiki.

[Sean Maxhell]

It's important to understand that "In Character" none of our characters are level 30 or "Epic". As such pirates and orcs are perfectly in line with what we should be facing on the high end.

We are, in character, level 20 I believe? And the high end threats on the server represent this. Regardless it is up to each individual server how they'd like to represent high level areas, be it dragons (which we never should and was a mistake with say the Frost Wyrm) or rats.

So no your character isn't a "literal herald of a god" he is at best some random somewhat strong adventurer.

Demons and devils are more of a near region ending event that would require coordination of multiple guilds. In fact we had this, and it was a threat that needed the involvement of the City of Baldurs Gate.

Eitherway this is purely philosophical and irrelevant to game balance as we can replace all enemies with the appearance of rats and your issue was one of balance rather than appearance of the enemies. I will agree that these two zones need to be added to the Areas by CR. And we need better marking of zones in game rather than having to look on the wiki.

Okay, but what you're telling me — is that what you like? What you want? What works for you? Is that how it is?

Because I’ve already told you — we clearly have different priorities and opinions, but if we want to keep playing this game, we have to adapt.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but it’s no longer 2005, when there were hundreds of servers with plenty to offer. Right now, the only server that has anything meaningful to offer is this one.

If you don’t meet me halfway, you are literally pushing me away — you are preventing me from ever playing this game again.

It infuriates me beyond belief that levels don’t matter and that my character is treated like some commoner. I spent years getting him to level 30 and making him strong.

I find this distorted and sick view of levels to be exactly that — sick and distorted.

I don’t know how long it takes others to reach level 30 and get all their gear — it took me years. If level 30 characters are the problem, then it should take longer to get there.

Back in the day, there were servers where you gained so little experience that you’d never reach the maximum level — and that was fine, because every level had value.

I’d rather be a level 10 character in a coherent server than a god in a server where nothing matters.

Honestly, you don’t seem like someone who respects my opinion. You seem like someone who’s comfortable where they are, and as long as you’re fine, you don’t care about others who are struggling for whatever reason. You’d rather stay blind and not make the effort to realize that maybe others have no other options — and no one is meeting them halfway

[Sean Maxhell]

Anyway, I’ve written my whining for this year too. Maybe next year will be better.

[Steve]

I’d argue it’s not the Areas that are the problem regarding loot, but that the “grind system” is that a player almost always has to repeat a million times said grind, in order to have any chance at some loot actually useful to the Character (of the player).

“Treasure hunting” is far more akin to a slot machine experience, than an adventure.

How could it be different? The best minds have debated this for decades….

[Mork]

If the player has to "cheat" to experience what the server has to offer, then the problem lies with the server and its balance, not the player.

Can I ask what do you mean by "cheat" mentioned in multiple instances?

Sidenote:
Server during events meets number of maximum players the game can handle... and often handles it very poorly. If you cannot use English to reasonable level and have to rely on AI for communication then I'd be very surprised if anyone from the staff would be overly interested in adjusting anything to you.

I'm a sort of PvE player myself but also trying to find balance in two worlds. Both PvE content and RP is quite awesome here but if you want to focus only on PvE then just enjoy and explore what there is but understand there won't be much content for you to consume eventually and it'll stop being fun at some point.

[Ravial]

Well, I can only encourage you to try out Roleplaying. The PvE is something we're working on overhauling.

[Sean Maxhell]

The other night, almost late night in my time zone, I managed to raid Skull Gorge with not just one, but two full teams, and I have to admit, it was actually enjoyable. It might partly be my fault, living on the other side of the world, my play schedule doesn’t really match up with most other players who are interested in dungeon raiding.

If there’s a dwarven defender in the party, you can go pretty much anywhere on the server.

As for the loot, well, I found so much stuff that I had to leave a lot of low-value items behind. That’s where my request for a scroll collector starts to sound a lot smarter and more convenient for everyone.

Too bad literally all the loot was useless. No, seriously, out of around thirty items, I wouldn’t have kept a single one, even if I were completely naked. xD