Scythes to x3 or exotic weapon

[YourMoveHolyMan]

I know I'm gonna open a can of worms with this one but:



A large, 2 handed weapon, 2d4 base, dual damage type, and x4 crit.

To compare it to a few others, halberds are 1d10, x3 crit but dual weapon type. Greatswords are 2d6 and x2 crit. Greataxes are 1d12 and x3 crit. (I may have to edit this post tomorrow I'm working from memory on these other weapon types)

All are martial weapons. The argument for the scythe being x4 I believe is tied do its inferior damage dice (2d4) and dual damage type (I believe being both slash, and pierce, it suffers from DR against either or both).

I don't know what exactly is the best answer for change, but I do recommend a change. My suggestion, to be discussed, would be making it a 2d6 x3 crit weapon, but bump it up to exotic proficiency. That puts it on damage level with greatsword, but the x3 crit puts it in a higher class. So there's investment (the feat) and the people that want the high damage numbers can still get there.

[Ithrinael]

I remember I did this calculation ~12 years ago once with a big excel spread sheet checking different AB-AC differences and sources of bonus damage, but I won't dive this deep for this post now. I may, however, in the coming days.

Let us take a look at greatswords and a few other weapons in comparison:

2d6 / 19- 20 x2 vs 2d4 /20 x 4 vs 2d4 /18-20 x 2 for greatsword/scythe/falchion
1d6 / 19-20 x2 vs 1d4/18-20x2 for short sword and kukri

For ease of the mathematics I will neglect the confirmation roll and we will just assume that every weapon has the same chance to crit, once they are on their confirmation roll.
Further we will not include all the possible sources of bonus damage etc and just deal with the raw damage dice for most of it. But we will take a look at it as well, by just refering it as D1H/D2H.

Over all possible results of a d20 rolled we will miss at least once (d20=1) and crit at least once (d20=20).

The shortsword deals 3.5 damage per hit. Every 10th (2/20) roll we deal 3.5 bonus damage, multiplied with the chance to hit.

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 1+, so in 95% of cases, we will deal:
19 x (3.5 + D1H) + 2 x 1 x (3.5 + D1H) x (2 - 1) = (19 + 2) x (3.5 + D1H) = 73.5 + 21 D1H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 11+, so in 50% of cases, we will deal:
10 x (3.5 + D1H) + 2 x 0.5 x (3.5 + D1H) x (2 -1) = (10 + 1) x (3.5 + D1H) = 38.5 + 11 D1H

Now it becomes interesting if the difference AC - AB begins to close in on the threat range:

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 18-20, so in 15% of cases, we will deal:
3 x (3.5 + D1H) + 2 x 0.15 x (3.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (3 + 0.3) x (3.5 + D1H) = 11.55 + 3.3 D1H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 19-20, so in 10% of cases, we will deal:
2 x (3.5 + D1H) + 2 x 0.1 x (3.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (2 + 0.2) x (3.5 + D1H) = 7.7 + 2.2 D1H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 20, so in 5% of cases, we will deal:
1 x (3.5 + D1H) + 1 x 0.05 x (3.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (1 + 0.05) x (3.5 + D1H) = 3.675 + 1.05 D1H

The kukri deals 2.5 damage per hit. Every (3/20) rolls we deal 2.5 bonus damage, multiplied with the chance to hit.

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 1+, so in 95% of cases, we will deal:
19 x (2.5 + D1H) + 3 x 1 x (2.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (19 + 3) x (2.5 +D1H) = 55 + 22 D1H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 11+, so in 50% of cases, we will deal:
10 x (2.5 + D1H) + 3 x 0.5 x (2.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (10 + 1.5) x (2.5 + D1H) = 28.75 + 11.5 D1H

Now it becomes interesting if the difference AC - AB begins to close in on the threat range:

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 18-20, so in 15% of cases, we will deal:
3 x (2.5 +D1H) + 3 x 0.15 x (2.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (3 + 0.45) x (2.5 + D1H) = 8.625 + 3.45 D1H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 19-20, so in 10% of cases, we will deal:
2 x (2.5 + D1H) + 2 x 0.1 x (2.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (2 + 0.2) x (2.5 + D1H) = 5.5 + 2.2 D1H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 20, so in 5% of cases, we will deal:
1 x (2.5 + D1H) + 1 x 0.05 x (2.5 + D1H) x (2-1) = (1 + 0.05) x (2.5 + D1H) = 2.625 + 1.05 D1H

The greatsword deals 7 damage per hit. Every (2/20) rolls we deal 7 bonus damage, multiplied with the chance to hit. Please keep in mind that this bonus damage D2H is not simply D1H times two, as it depends on a lot of factors.

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 1+, so in 95% of cases, we will deal:
19 x (7 + D2H) + 2 x 1 x (7 + D2H) x (2-1) = (19 + 2) x (7 + D2H) = 147 + 21 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 11+, so in 50% of cases, we will deal:
10 x (3.5 + D2H) + 2 x 0.5 x (3.5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (10 + 1) x (7 + D2H) = 77 + 11 D2H

Now it becomes interesting if the difference AC - AB begins to close in on the threat range:

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 18-20, so in 15% of cases, we will deal:
3 x (3.5 + D2H) + 2 x 0.15 x (3.5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (3 + 0.3) x (7 + D2H) = 23.1 + 3.3 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 19-20, so in 10% of cases, we will deal:
2 x (3.5 + D2H) + 2 x 0.1 x (3.5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (2 + 0.2) x (7 + D2H) = 15.4 + 2.2 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 20, so in 5% of cases, we will deal:
1 x (3.5 + D2H) + 1 x 0.05 x (3.5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (1 + 0.05) x (7 + D2H) = 7.35 + 1.05 D2H

The scythe deals 5 damage per hit. Every (1/20) rolls we deal 5 x (4-1) bonus damage, multiplied with the chance to hit. Please keep in mind that this bonus damage D2H is not simply D1H times two, as it depends on a lot of factors.

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 1+, so in 95% of cases, we will deal:
19 x (5 + D2H) + 1 x 1 x (5 + D2H) x (4-1) = (19 + 3) x (5 + D2H) = 110 + 22 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 11+, so in 50% of cases, we will deal:
10 x (3.5 + D2H) + 1 x 0.5 x (5 + D2H) x (4-1) = (10 + 1.5) x (5 + D2H) = 57.5 + 11.5 D2H

Now it becomes interesting if the difference AC - AB begins to close in on the threat range:

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 18-20, so in 15% of cases, we will deal:
3 x (3.5 + D2H) + 1 x 0.15 x (5 + D2H) x (4-1) = (3 + 0.45) x (5 + D2H) = 17.25 + 3.45 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 19-20, so in 10% of cases, we will deal:
2 x (3.5 + D2H) + 1 x 0.1 x (5 + D2H) x (4-1) = (2 + 0.3) x (5 + D2H) = 11.5 + 2.3 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 20, so in 5% of cases, we will deal:
1 x (3.5 + D2H) + 1 x 0.05 x (5 + D2H) x (4-1) = (1 + 0.15) x (5 + D2H) = 5.75 + 1.15 D2H

The falchion deals 5 damage per hit. Every (3/20) rolls we deal 5 x (2-1) bonus damage, multiplied with the chance to hit. Please keep in mind that this bonus damage D2H is not simply D1H times two, as it depends on a lot of factors.

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 1+, so in 95% of cases, we will deal:
19 x (5 + D2H) + 3 x 1 x (5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (19 + 3) x (5 + D2H) = 110 + 22 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 11+, so in 50% of cases, we will deal:
10 x (3.5 + D2H) + 3 x 0.5 x (5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (10 + 1.5) x (5 + D2H) = 57.5 + 11.5 D2H

Now it becomes interesting if the difference AC - AB begins to close in on the threat range:

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 18-20, so in 15% of cases, we will deal:
3 x (3.5 + D2H) + 3 x 0.15 x (5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (3 + 0.45) x (5 + D2H) = 17.25 + 3.45 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 19-20, so in 10% of cases, we will deal:
2 x (3.5 + D2H) + 2 x 0.1 x (5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (2 + 0.2) x (5 + D2H) = 11 + 2.2 D2H

If we assume we hit on an average of rolling 20, so in 5% of cases, we will deal:
1 x (3.5 + D2H) + 1 x 0.05 x (5 + D2H) x (2-1) = (1 + 0.05) x (5 + D2H) = 5.25 + 1.05 D2H

We see an advantage for the scythe and falchion at higher bonus damage D2H, for a trade in of their weapon dice however. This bonus damage however needs to exceed the advantage the greatsword has in raw damage dice. Or: It is not the scythe and falchion that are overpowered, but damage stacking shifts the advantage. The scythe further has the disadvantage that it may overkill, while the falchion may reliably crit and kill the enemy faster, with less hits.

If wanted, we can do the same comparison for Scimitar and Longsword and the Battleaxe as well!

Edit: I did not include keen properties, as these are just a 2x multiplier on the threat range, as long as the chance to hit is higher than the threat range. I did not include the weapon master class as well, but I will do so in coming time.

[mrm3ntalist]

Is this a 2026 problem or always has been?

The crit range is what balances out weapons and that is why a falchion averages the same dps with scythes if no AC is taken into account. One has the highest crit range the other the highest crit multiplier. The more AC an opponent has, the better average in theory a scythe has. No problem though, this is how it is supposed to be

[Mork]

I agree that:
Scythes are above the average with x4 crit multiplayer and cause WM's reach absurd amount of dmg with them making often any melee classes without WM underperforming. It's fortunately somewhat countered with weapon availability but if you get good WM scythe you're god among men.

All 20/x3 weapons are average with blunt having slight edge cause of the dmg type. Spears are also a bit bumped up here by range and availability to Duelist.
All 18-20/x2 weapons are average. Slightly bumped up if you consider 5 level WM builds. I'd value scimitars slightly higher for versatility and rapiers for availability to various classes like Duelist, CoCL etc
All 19-20/x2 Weapons are below average almost no reason to use them unless RP flavor or class requirement is taken into account.

Nuff said.

[mrm3ntalist]

The Falchion always wins on average. Yes there will always be edge cases but for ever, the falchion/scimitar was always the weapon of choice for Weapon masters.

Base numbers

Average damage of 2d4 = 5

Scythe
Crit range: 20
Crit multiplier: ×4
Crit chance: 5%

Average damage:

95% → 5 damage
5% → 20 damage

Expected damage:

0.95
×
5
+
0.05
×
20
=
5.75
0.95×5+0.05×20=5.75


Falchion
Crit range: 18–20
Crit multiplier: ×3
Crit chance: 15%

Average damage:

85% → 5 damage
15% → 15 damage

Expected damage:

0.85
×
5
+
0.15
×
15
=
6.5
0.85×5+0.15×15=6.5

Result

Weapon Average damage per hit
Scythe 5.75
Falchion 6.5

------------------------------------------------------------------

With Weapon master ( 7 levels )

Scythe

Stats:

Damage: 2d4
Crit range: 17–20
Crit chance: 4/20 = 20%
Crit multiplier: ×5

Damage values:

Normal hit: 5
Critical hit: 5 × 5 = 25

Expected damage:

0.80
×
5
+
0.20
×
25
0.80×5+0.20×25
4
+
5
=
9
4+5=9

Scythe expected damage = 9

Falchion

Stats:

Damage: 2d4
Crit range: 13–20
Crit chance: 8/20 = 40%
Crit multiplier: ×3

Damage values:

Normal hit: 5
Critical hit: 5 × 3 = 15

Expected damage:

0.60
×
5
+
0.40
×
15
0.60×5+0.40×15
3
+
6
=
9
3+6=9

Falchion expected damage = 9

Final comparison
Weapon Crit chance Multiplier Expected damage
Scythe 20% ×5 9
Falchion 40% ×3 9

[wurdpass]

People overrate the big number but the math says scimitar/falchion wins, and that’s not even taking the overkill potential into account.