The "Epic Store"

[chad878262]

I can honestly say that was discussed Steve. In any change (or lack of change) there is no perfect solution in the majority of the discussions. No matter what there are going to be those that suffer for a change and those that benefit (and those that are largely unaffected). We absolutely knew up front that there would be impact on the value of low epic and mid tier items (I think Karond spoke most about it in fact) and that was taken in to consideration. In the end we decided it was time to allow folks to have something to shoot for. Frankly, I would rather have seen the loot tables become more forgiving with providing epic drops, but that solution is a much bigger ask then the epic shop (loot tables are apparently very difficult to modify and doing so can cause big problems if any mistakes are made).

In any case, if your concern was that no one thought through the potential issues, I can put that to rest. If your concern is that was somehow the wrong decision, agree to disagree, I suppose.

[mrm3ntalist]

A market of unique items against junk.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

But to respond directly: I don't know if it was worse before, or really better now. That depends, in my opinion on the matter, the Current Rate in which Players—new, old, middle class—can acquire coin. And not just acquire, but maintain or increase that coin-based wealth.

As you pointed out, M3nt, you recently went on a dungeon run and sold off 10k worth of items. But did you use Mendel to do that? If so, I'm assuming to ran a dungeon appropriate to his Level and equipment.

So how is the actual Rate of Coin Gain for players starting from Level 1? Is or was there any expectation based on numbers, formulate by QC, when considering the costs for these Epic Shop Items? As well, considering that the "middle class" would lose considerable value in their items, which maybe were all they lucked out in finding or could literally find in the course of 3–4 years.

I know you're being a little cheeky in your responses—so am I—but yes, it WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING if things are not fully thought out. Maybe that is the point then you're making, which is fine. I'm hoping that if I was to go back through all the posts on the subject, someone from QC would have said "Yeah, its really not a complete solution, nor perfect, the Epic Shop, but...it does grant many Players toys they never could acquire otherwise and previously, so that is a gain for the Server. However, in that gain for the Server, some will feel a hard loss, and that simply has to be accepted."

You know, honesty spoken publicly goes a loooooong way.

Yes i did use mendel. Went in dungeons like durlags and serpent hills.

You know though, I know how to still make a lot of gold even in the low levels. There are many little things one can do that when they all come together it increases the generated gold. It just needs some planning.

To put it simple is what you put your mind on and how much you commit to it. It being either gathering gold, or progressing plots, or getting items. Of course luck, experience and knowing players help as well.

As far as thinking things out. You cant make a desicion that will satisfy everyone.

[Steve]

In any case, if your concern was that no one thought through the potential issues, I can put that to rest.

Usually, my concerns are generated because things change, additions come online, etc., with very little explanation or presentation of the conditions of said changes/additions/etc. I'm not saying that everything appears to appear by fiat or something, if any time, just rarely rarely.

I mean, just re-read the OP of this thread: in my humble opinion, so much of what was seen as a "travesty" could have been averted in perception through a general acceptance gained via a well presented explanation by QC + Devs over the inclusion/change/addition before or while it was implemented.

The majority of the BGTSCC Community cannot see what is discussed in the QC forums, Dev forums, DM forums. Personally, I'm fine with that, honestly. But it would be proper, and better practice, if a conclusion was publicly presented to back up reasoning, so that those of us with "concerns" can say: "well, at least those bozos did their homework on the issue, and though I can't take those clowns seriously, I also can't argue with them much over the decision!"

Minus the perceived negatives, of course!!! *hugs QC and Devs*

[mrm3ntalist]

I mean, just re-read the OP of this thread: in my humble opinion, so much of what was seen as a "travesty" could have been averted in perception through a general acceptance gained via a well presented explanation by QC + Devs over the inclusion/change/addition before or while it was implemented.

Is that for the players to be informed or to share their opinions about the possbile change?

[Steve]

I'm thinking a conclusion by QC + Devs, possibly explaining reasoning for inclusion, pros/cons, and whatever QC + Devs would feel is appropriate to be as informative as possible.

I'd say it could even be posted and locked, and if a Player identified an error or needed to challenge QCs decision, they could do that via PM.

Obviously, we don't have Rules—yet—saying a Player couldn't post a challenge publicly—hence the OP—but I'm betting dollars on cents a QC + Dev conclusion would be truly helpful, and...all warm community friendly like.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'm thinking a conclusion by QC + Devs, possibly explaining reasoning for inclusion, pros/cons, and whatever QC + Devs would feel is appropriate to be as informative as possible.

I'd say it could even be posted and locked, and if a Player identified an error or needed to challenge QCs decision, they could do that via PM.

Obviously, we don't have Rules—yet—saying a Player couldn't post a challenge publicly—hence the OP—but I'm betting dollars on cents a QC + Dev conclusion would be truly helpful, and...all warm community friendly like.

I like that idea. This way only bug fixes ( which currently are more than i like ) will happen and new content such as new areas, new classes and feats. I like this a lot.

Good luck getting any nerfs, or changing something that has to do with paladins/orcs/FS/EW etc. Such hot topics never come to a conclusion in the public forums. Most get locked with many different ideas being said by different players.

With this though it wil lbe like this

"Hey guys, we are going to implement that new area in Ulcaster Ruins". Who doesnt like new areas? it goes in.

While when things go like

"Hey guys we want to make paladins this way"
- No paladins need to be made the other way
- no paladins should be more powerful than that
- No paladins have RP buggage
- Guys, lets leave paladins alone
- I am against any changes
- .. and the list goes on.
Result? Nothing gets done and will go ahead on implementing a new area or PRC that are more universally accepted.

Yes, now that i think about it, this will be great to get some bug fixes done.

[NegInfinity]

My character have recently been with the character Vendor and Nai on a dungeon run. In less than an hour we all made more than 10k by selling everything we found on merchants. That could have been more if we used the in game auction. I consider this a very decent way to earn this amount of money.

Look, this is not very reliable.

Profit from dungeon runs relies on randomness, one day you might find rare item, most of the other times you'll be getting under 1k.

Another issue is that higher levels seem to be getting better loot (there's massive difference between what level 14 and level 30 can get).

Reliable sources of gold at the moment are minotaurs and northern trolls. Assuming the character can carry that much.

[mrm3ntalist]

My character have recently been with the character Vendor and Nai on a dungeon run. In less than an hour we all made more than 10k by selling everything we found on merchants. That could have been more if we used the in game auction. I consider this a very decent way to earn this amount of money.

Look, this is not very reliable.

Profit from dungeon runs relies on randomness, one day you might find rare item, most of the other times you'll be getting under 1k.

Another issue is that higher levels seem to be getting better loot (there's massive difference between what level 14 and level 30 can get).

Reliable sources of gold at the moment are minotaurs and northern trolls. Assuming the character can carry that much.

Reliable is a realtive term. The only reliable thing is that something happens all the itme. Like getting gold whenever you log in.

Yes when i loot i might get 8k for example. The next time i might get 12. The other time i might die and rage quit.

[NegInfinity]

Question: if we change his location, what will be the point of going to hell?

Interacting with certain npc there and getting unique items that only drop in hell.

We've explored the area, there's massive roleplaying potential there, and many nice (and secluded) loccations. It is a pity that high CR makes it inaccessible for majority of people.

[mrm3ntalist]

We've explored the area, there's massive roleplaying potential there, and many nice (and secluded) loccations. It is a pity that high CR makes it inaccessible for majority of people.

I never killed anything when i went there with the intention to buy something.

[Akroma666]

The other time i might die and rage quit.

You don't know me!

Seriously though.. Expanding those tables and doubling the drip rates of epics would be very desirable. Or the RNG loot generator which would be great. Some of my favorite items dropped off a boss with the RNG loot table.

[NegInfinity]

We've explored the area, there's massive roleplaying potential there, and many nice (and secluded) loccations. It is a pity that high CR makes it inaccessible for majority of people.

I never killed anything when i went there with the intention to buy something.

There are a lot of people on the server and some of them are not you.
If a party doesn't have access to sanctuary/jaunt/whatever, you'll have to fight.
Some monsters there happily attack people under jaunt/saunctuary as well.
Getting through dragon + portal guardians can be quite difficult.

My character have recently been with the character Vendor and Nai on a dungeon run. In less than an hour we all made more than 10k by selling everything we found on merchants. That could have been more if we used the in game auction. I consider this a very decent way to earn this amount of money.

Look, this is not very reliable.

Profit from dungeon runs relies on randomness, one day you might find rare item, most of the other times you'll be getting under 1k.

Another issue is that higher levels seem to be getting better loot (there's massive difference between what level 14 and level 30 can get).

Reliable sources of gold at the moment are minotaurs and northern trolls. Assuming the character can carry that much.

Reliable is a realtive term. The only reliable thing is that something happens all the itme. Like getting gold whenever you log in.

Yes when i loot i might get 8k for example. The next time i might get 12. The other time i might die and rage quit.

I'm not a fan of semantic/dictionary arguments, you know?

"Reliable" as in "with somewhat predictable frequency".
Most of the time you'll be getting broken bottles and other junk in dungeons, even from boss chest.

For example, how long would it take for you to make half a million gold via dungeon runs? That's the situation in which you can discuss "reliable".

I think part of the issue is that monsters in general rarely drop anything and any income comes only from chests, there aren't that many of those, and selling prices are capped at around 1350. It is good that things slightly changed and there are at least some creatures that drop gold now. But in general economy (assuming the server even has it) doesn't seem to be well thought out.

Where does the gold come from? Think about it. So you can make 30k from once upon a time sale on auciton. Where did buyer's gold come from? Did the dude make 60 dungeon runs to gather 30k gold for that purchase? I remember well that with my first character gathering the first set of gear was incredibly difficult and time consuming.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'm not a fan of semantic/dictionary arguments, you know?

"Reliable" as in "with somewhat predictable frequency".
Most of the time you'll be getting broken bottles and other junk in dungeons, even from boss chest.

For example, how long would it take for you to make half a million gold via dungeon runs? That's the situation in which you can discuss "reliable".

I think part of the issue is that monsters in general rarely drop anything and any income comes only from chests, there aren't that many of those, and selling prices are capped at around 1350. It is good that things slightly changed and there are at least some creatures that drop gold now. But in general economy (assuming the server even has it) doesn't seem to be well thought out.

Where does the gold come from? Think about it. So you can make 30k from once upon a time sale on auciton. Where did buyer's gold come from? Did the dude make 60 dungeon runs to gather 30k gold for that purchase? I remember well that with my first character gathering the first set of gear was incredibly difficult and time consuming.

I dont want to argue over dictionary. Some words i hardly understand...

But, personally i can make half a mil in a week, maybe less. Quicker if a risk more.

The gold comes from many places. Whether you believe it or not, the junk items i find are a very good source of gold. It makes me more that what the drop from the Frost King do for example.

[NegInfinity]

But, personally i can make half a mil in a week, maybe less. Quicker if a risk more.

"Junk" means things like "broken spritis bottle".

Either way, I have hard time believing it given that there are people who never had over 100k in years. Well, maybe if you're talking about grinding loot 80 hours/week.

Speaking of which another thing on bgtscc that was always bothering me is inflated item prices.
For example, ring of protection is supposed to go for.... 2000gp +1, 8000+2, 18000+3 and in the game last ring+3 required 30k and quite a bit of searching.

I think it would help if some of the long-term players would occasionaly re-start as a level 1 without grandfathered gold/gear. Unfortunately, it is impossible to forget server-related info, but it would help to put things into perspective anyway.

[mrm3ntalist]

But, personally i can make half a mil in a week, maybe less. Quicker if a risk more.

"Junk" means things like "broken spritis bottle".

Either way, I have hard time believing it given that there are people who never had over 100k in years. Well, maybe if you're talking about grinding loot 80 hours/week.

Speaking of which another thing on bgtscc that was always bothering me is inflated item prices.
For example, ring of protection is supposed to go for.... 2000gp +1, 8000+2, 18000+3 and in the game last ring+3 required 30k and quite a bit of searching.

Always the time comment. Let me know how many hours you play and i will do it in that timeframe. Really, gathering gold is very easy.

I think it would help if some of the long-term players would occasionaly re-start as a level 1 without grandfathered gold/gear. Unfortunately, it is impossible to forget server-related info, but it would help to put things into perspective anyway.

I can do it with no epic gear as well. I think it might be possible with a not epic character as well, if the routes i used to do in ym "old" days are the same. Pfft, now that i dont have to wait for chests to reset from another player... piece of cake.

Regarding gathering gold, the server is on very easy mode.