Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

Convolutedline wrote:That makes sense ^^

ok

yea Im just thinking the weaker PrCs like frost mage / palemaster / scholar of candlekeep

I dunno about cleric maybe hospitaler? I don't know of cleric caster PrCs aside from Hierophant :o
ASOC is one of the classes I mentioned ('scholar of candlekeep'). :lol: Practical Metamagic would make Empower and Maximize solid alongside grabbing Spell Focus:Evocation to increase DC's a bit it would be a heck of a blaster. Plus the metamagic would work with the Cleric spellbook as well!

Not too much to worry about from the Cleric side. MorningLord wouldn't really help and Lathander is not on my suggested deity list anyway. Can't really think of any major issues with any divine PRC's outside Hierophant, but really would have to just look through each PRC and look for abilities that would benefit both Arcane and Divine casting to determine if that would be too powerful. That would require more effort than I am willing to put in unless the class is actually close to being approved and has dev/admin support to get implemented. Much easier in the short term to just say no multi-classing outside W/Divine/MT, but I'll concede that there might be some PRC's that would be RP benefit only and wouldn't necessarily make the MT OP. I'll simply say there are plenty of PRC's that would be OP mixed with 9th level arcane + divine spell casting.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

^^ yes ok that makes sense

I thought ASOC would be a stretch but maybe not

I like Frost Mage and Palemaster possibility an am not sure about cleric PrCs other than hierophant as well

CooOOOoOOoooOl :D :D :D ok :D :D :D :D
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Convolutedline
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

I will look at bgtscc domain deities soon :D

:D just bought items from avernus so I wanna make a new MT now x.x :D
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Convolutedline
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

I want to add i looked at the bgtscc an it didnt list the domains via that link just descriptions. Seems you know more of the deity lore than sourcing showed.

Also i bricked my laptop today.. Its a few years old an a replacement been purchased but, i wont be adding much to this for a week or so.

Sorry an yay
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

[Outdated link removed]
Last edited by Tsidkenu on Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
chad878262
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by chad878262 »

The link Tsid posted is the same as the one I posted. Take note that in said post it first lists any changes to domains and new domains and below that it lists each deity, racial deities below the human pantheon and their allowed domains.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

HIII yay I'm back

that link is a dead end - an I am not sure what to make of it x.x :(

but, I am back an ready to talk about this an or work on this more :D along with everything else I' am up to lately :D
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

I very much hate the plan of not having healing domain overlap with magic domain per one deity whatsoever x.x or as my character Snaz would say "damnaaaation!"

:( hmm x.x

I like that it opens assay resistance though!
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

only deity I see with magic domain that makes sense as an rp bottleneck sort of thing is mystra by an by

azuth is lord of wizards but, mystra is all magic deity :D

I dunno x.x :D :D :D the rest sorta don't really make sense an don't offer much breadth of character development - one of them is just about vengeance and the undead as a duerger / drow if I remember correct... That's sorta like x.x

I must want vengeance to be mystic theurge arrrrrrrrgh :3
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Convolutedline »

also

even if this MT was only 3 - 5 levels it would make a huge difference - it doesn't need to be a very like significant build idea... It could be on par with like thaumaturgist scaling :D

does that sound better??

it just gets really bogged at one point x.x like my current mt I like very much

and I was reassessing my thoughts about spells per day an such - the spell reserve feats should be useful though, a tad awkward one per round as they wouldn't compete with a pure damage class, would probably be enough :D

:D :D :D :D
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Almarea90
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Almarea90 »

Since I didn't want to open a new thread for a topic that has been discussed in the past, I will answer to this one. I am one of those people who would like a PRC that combines arcane and divine spells and literally does just that. I understand this has been discussed and din't go anywhere but recently KOPOJIbRAKOB came up with the following idea, which I really like but since I am absolutely not savvy with builds I would like to hear some opinions, especially from the devs, on whether or not this class is doable.
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:31 am Mystic Theurge

Blurring the line between divine and arcane, mystic theurges draw power from divine sources and musty tomes alike. While most spellcasters choose one path to magical power, mystic theurges walk two roads at once. Mystic theurges have unparalleled diversity of spells. In time, a mystic theurge can cast almost any spell. Mystic theurges are often obsessed with magical lore, traveling to the ends of the earth to learn some new arcane secret or divine insight.

Mystic theurges tend to be fascinated with magic in whatever form it takes. They’re always on the hunt for powerful magic items and new arcane spells. Those mystic theurges who worship a deity use the power of their spellcasting to further their deity’s agenda.


Requirements:
Skills: Lore: Arcana 10 ranks, Lore: Religion 10 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will, Skill Focus (Concentration), Any Metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd level divine spells and 3rd level arcane spells.

Class Features:
- Hit Die: d6
- Base Attack Bonus: Low.
- High Saves: Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: None.
- Armor Proficiencies: None.
- Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.
- Class Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Lore: Arcana, Lore: Geograpy & Astronomy, Lore: History, Lore: Nature, Lore: Religion, Lore: The Planes, Sense Motive, Spellcraft.

- Class Abilities:
1: Theurge Power (+1), Theurge Lore, Spellcasting Progression
2: Spell Synthesis
3: Theurge Power (+2)
4: Extend Spell
5: Theurge Power (+3)
6: Spell Synthesis
7: Theurge Power (+4)
8:
9: Theurge Power (+5)
10: Spell Synthesis

- Spellcasting: At every level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in either arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You must decide which of the classes progresses spellcasting and choose only one.

- Theurge Power: Mystic Theurge spell proficiency grows as they ascend in power. At each odd level, Mystic Theurge receives +1 to their caster level in both spellcasting classes. This bonus does not provide new spells or progress spellcasting. The caster level achieved this way can't exceed the character's level.

- Theurge Lore: Mystic Theurge is fascinated with mysteries and ancient knowledge. Starting from level 1, they add their class level as a bonus to Spellcraft, Lore: Arcana and Lore: Religion skills.

- Spell Synthesis: Mystic Theurge's enigmatic knowledge allows them to weave simple spells with unimaginable ease. At 2nd, 6th and at 10th level, Mystic Theurge can select a spell as a spell-like ability that can be used endlessly, but has a 18 seconds cooldown. This spell's caster level is equal to the progression chosen for the Mystic Theurge. On higher levels, Mystic Theurge can select more powerful spells in addition to the lower level selection.

Spell selection for level 2:
- Analyze Spell
- Blades of Fire (Wizard/Sorcerer version)
- Bless
- Blood Vision
- Detect Magic
- Identify
- Lesser Restoration
- Light
- Mage Armor
- Magic Missile
- Negative Energy Ray

Spell selection for level 6:
- Call Lightning
- Darkness
- Death Armor
- Expeditious Retreat
- Faerie Fire
- Fireball
- Grease
- Ice Darts
- Shield
- Searing Light
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter

Spell selection for level 10:
- Balagarn's Iron Horn
- Barkskin
- Blindsight
- Conjure Shadows
- Cure Critical Wounds
- Fear
- Mass Curse of Impending Blades
- Mass Lesser Vigor
- Negative Energy Burst
- Silence
- Thunderlance
You can also find the PnP version at this link.
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DaloLorn
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Fascinating.

It doesn't scratch that itch for 20/20 spell progression, but I don't think we're getting that anytime soon. :lol:

Besides, some of the stuff his proposed MT gets would still make it pretty interesting. That being said, I think Spell Synthesis could do with some more examination, because there's a number of really obvious spell picks mixed in with some spells I don't think any MT would want to cast once every 3 rounds.

On Minor Synthesis:
  • Dunno about Analyze Spell. Is it the same as Analyze Dweomer? If so, it could be useful, but not a realistic pick for any MT capable of preparing the spell normally.
  • Blades of Fire seems like a solid pick. It's a very short buff, so you'll always be able to keep it on cooldown if you want to.
  • The only way I see an MT picking Bless is if they're a natural caster (ranger, druid, shaman), or a favored soul without Bless. You generally only need to cast it once per rest.
  • I don't remember what Blood Vision is, but I don't think it's really worth the bother.
  • Don't think Detect Magic is worth it, either.
  • Identify is a fun pick, but identifying stuff is pretty easy. (TBH, it's probably too easy. I can't remember the last time I saw anyone cast Identify on any PW I've played on.
  • Lesser Restoration could be handy in the right situation. :)
  • Mage Armor could also be useful, in case you need to ward more people than you expected. But it's just Mage Armor, so not a big deal.
  • Magic Missile could be decent. It's not quite like a reserve feat, but it's sort of like Mystra's Spell Stash, soooo that's not the worst choice in the world.
  • Ditto for Negative Energy Ray.
In summary, some spells are very likely to be picked, while others are very likely to be completely ignored.

Moderate Synthesis has a few better picks... and a few lousy ones:
  • Call Lightning is neat. I could see an MT-based gish taking this to zap anyone in range.
  • Darkness... I shall refrain from commenting. It's got a short duration, so that's good for a Synthesis spell, but I can't remember if the spell is actually any good in the first place. Sorry.
  • Death Armor's also a nice choice for an MT gish. Pair it with a lot of Stoneskins or something, and you could do a decent amount of pain over time. Not great, but decent.
  • Expeditious Retreat could be good for solo mobility, or getting out of a nasty spot! Otherwise, not great. It's self-cast, and all it does is give you speed. I'd peg it as one of the worse options here... but not the worst!
  • Faerie Fire could be a pretty solid choice.
  • Fireball's great. It's sort of like a Rune of Flame, only better! (Except for the part where Runes of Flame don't do friendly fire.)
  • Grease is another good pick here.
  • Ice Darts are okay, I guess. The AoE spells are deadlier, but this is an upgrade over an Invisible Needle.
  • Shield's not worth it. Much like Bless, it should be a once-per-rest spell... assuming you don't get +Shield AC via a more advanced spell such as Deez's, Shades, or Magic Vestment!
  • Searing Light seems comparable to Ice Darts. It's situationally better, but also situationally worse. Depends on what you expect to fight a lot of.
  • Tasha's Hideous Laughter has lousy DCs against most of the server's PvE opponents... and that's just the ones it'll work on. Mind-affecting immunities are common in both PvE and PvP, leaving this marginally better than Shield... if you have a source of Shield AC.
As you can see, the good spells got better, but the only reason the bad spells are better than they were with Minor Synthesis is that the worst of Minor Synthesis was god-awful.

Major Synthesis is really hit-and-miss:
  • Balagarn's Iron Horn isn't really that great. I guess it does offer a way of stalling enemy casters under the right circumstances, but besides that, I can't see a lot of uses for it. (It is, however, a short-duration spell, so it benefits a lot from Synthesis, even if it is a pretty underwhelming capstone.)
  • Barkskin could be handy for a divine MT. Depends on whether you have any other sources of Natural AC, and whether you want to buff a lot of people. It's definitely more likely to be useful than Mage Armor, but it's a capstone spell. Its claim to fame shouldn't be "I'm more likely to need this than I needed the spell I got at level 2."
  • Blindsight's okay, I guess? It has a good synergy with Darkness, and it's nice to be able to make everyone see through invisibility. 8)
  • Conjure Shadows seems kinda mediocre. Does it get the extended casting, too?
  • Cure Critical Wounds is a solid pick. It's like a reserve healing feat!
  • Fear's pretty bad. It's a lot like Tasha's Hideous Laughter in all the ways that made that one bad, and it's a capstone spell. Yuck.
  • Mass Curse of Impending Blades sounds fun. You lose AC! You lose AC! Everyone loses AC!
  • Mass Lesser Vigor is a good pick, just like CCW. It depends on whether you want to heal a lot of people a little bit, or heal one person a big bit.
  • Negative Energy Burst's a decent one, for many of the same reasons as Fireball and Call Lightning were. Harder to ward against in PvP, but also harder to get any mileage out of in PvE because of how many undead dungeons we have.
  • Silence sounds pretty potent!
  • Thunderlance isn't bad, but it's not very inspiring compared to some of the other options. I guess it's maybe a passable way of stripping wands, potions or scrolls, though the recent debate about CL30 elixirs makes me question the value of such a choice.
By and large, Major Synthesis isn't a lot better than Moderate Synthesis. It's just different kinds of good, and different kinds of awful.
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Almarea90
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Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by Almarea90 »

Thank you for your feedback. I guess tweaks can be done to the spells available if the Devs decide to make it real. Unfortunately the progression of PNP class would probably be too op especially if it gives access to 9th level spells for both classes.
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yyj

Re: Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

Unread post by yyj »

Considering the current levels of dispels, if this class cannot get higher than 20 CL on both spell progressions then it would be quite alright.
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