Taking Another Whack at Surface Evil RP. Who Wants In?

[Darkwind]

I’m not personally opposed to a Murder Hobo gang, if it is truly Chaotic Evil in nature. That could be loads of fun!

But if you’re NOT going full metal hobo here, but using the term OOC, you’ll likely find others take your effort as Murder Hobo in a meta gaming kind of way, assuming you are what you are not!

What are you(s)?!?

Now that I think about it more, the ruthless, sadistic, cutthroat, bandit beasts gang does have a certain appeal...though by most accounts, to be short lived!

Think of 'Murder Hobos' as an "internal working name" until we can come up with a 'For the Public' external name.

I realize this offends the sensibilities of some as you MUST wear your motives on your sleeve openly for all to see but I think the Murder Hobos have decided that would be decidedly bad for business so I don't think we intend to do operate in such a binary / overt manner. Sorry to anyone who's alignmental feathers that ruffles.

Will Murder Hobos become the public / name / face? Unknown, it certainly would as you so astutely pointed out likely greatly lower our collective life expectancies.

[Max Hatchet]

@ Max Hatchet - Seek me out in game or send me a pm if you want to work with the Murder Hobo's. We need a naval satellite sect of The Murder Hobos....The Murder Hobo Marines?
Har. Jk (no I'm not).
But your crew looks like it would work well with mine.
Go evil teamwork!!

Its posssible... you can look out IG - my toon is Billy Crossbones - the first mate. Try some Rp.. they arent out and out murderers as of yet tho

[Tekill]

Little update on evil RP.
I came across some issues in setting up my evil guild.
Actually I originally wanted to set up an evil network (like an underground/ underbelly/black market) to link all chaotic/evil/deviant/non conformist guilds/factions/religions/individuals. The goal to promote and support openly 'wicked' RP on the surface.
After talking with you all, I figured it would be easiest to initiate this network by first starting a guild/faction/gang/whatever.
Baby steps and all that....but I find myself stuck in a sort of loop.

So basically the good news is that I had up to about 15 players showing interest and volunteering to join. The bad news is that I am now down to about 4-6 of us.
A lot of players asked me to sign them up, and then I never heard from them again. This was weird....

Time zones was a bit of an issue.
So was individual opinions differing on everything from the name to the guild, to the 'type/style' of evil we should RP, to what levels we should all be, to the belief that this server will not support what we would want to achieve.

But in a nut shell I think it was timing and willingness to commit that made them poop out. These two issues are basically what all factions face, and so many factions have overcome this with time.

But, the sudden lack of commitment from so many players, that were so intereted at the beginning, had me wondering.

Did it have to do with the consistant complaint that there is not enough support for evil RP on the server. The subject has been talked to death so Im not opening that can of worms here. I will say that whether you beleive this lack of support for evil is justifiable or not, depends on what kind of RP are you interested in. Are you more into PvP, and conflict or do you prefer intrigue and infiltration. I am one of those that beleives there is room for both.

So again, I wanted to create a network to help support evil RP. To do that I need a group of players to help build this network. But to get a commited group going I need support for our evil operations. And round and round.

The four of us are still pretty excited about what we are doing. If the gang grows a bit more, we can start actually doing some of the schemes we are cooking up. Once we get a bit of notice we can then start reaching out to the other factions to start networking.

We have talked to the DMs in the past regarding some of our plans, but we still have to bridge our current ideas/plans to the DMs, to get that support. (I think bridge and DM's and I can hear Gandolf in the back of my head saying: "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!")

So to play it safe I feel we need to get more players involved before we can really start bugging the DM's for support. We also need more ideas on actual evil plans/schemes we can do as well. We need to build a solid reputation before we can earn the respect and trust with the other evil factions to build said network with all the evil-doer's out there. And we will most likely need players willing to let us try and make them our victims.

Growth first, then DM support, then plans into action, then reputation, then network.

That said, we have been meeting on Saturdays and Sundays so far. If you have time free on your weekends and want to participate send me a pm.

[Tsidkenu]

Time zones was a bit of an issue.

I found this to be the issue when I was guild leading the Sharrans. My guildies were certainly willing to RP and contribute to stuff, it's just that we could never really gel as a unit and get some common play hours. There's no point even running a guild if you can't actually RP with anyone in it. My advice is to concentrate the majority of your efforts on the players you can actually interact with on a regular basis. Trying to fit guild events into a myriad of timezones is no different to banging your head aimlessly on a brick wall.

The second issue is that you cannot RP open evil very easily. The good cliques will utterly spurn you ICly (and fair enough; what do they have to gain by cavorting with evil?) to the point of seeming to ignore your existence entirely, at which point it's time to hang the boots up and call it a day. The best RP I think I had when playing my Sharran was the 4 months of lead up to the murder of Sir Anthem and a little bit of the post-script (ie, knocking off Leland Lloross as well). After that it was just an awful solo drag most of the time which is why I ended up just giving up.

Good luck out there.

[Steve]

The second issue is that you cannot RP open evil very easily.

I'd say you can RP open Evil...but you'll need to STAY in areas that are "welcoming" to evil actions/thoughts/conversation/etc.

Does it even make sense to walk up to the BG campfire and start talking about summoning undead, or necromatic studies, or trying to overthrow the Triad?!?!

Would that even make sense at the Darkhold campfire?!?

My point is that there seems to be little Big Idea Direction and support for Evil on the Server. Lots of little factions of Evil this and that, mostly secret, but Evil PCs should have a "Boss" in which to guide their actions, for their actions to support, and to gain rewards from. DMs...are you interested?

@Tekill:
Don't worry too much about it mate...even DMs have failed to bring together Evil-minded PCs for X events and actions.

Still—and we've discussed this in private already—as with any effort, for it to actually develop in the long term on BGTSCC, there has to be focus and direct goals one is working towards. Timezones not aligning is a yuuuuge Effort Killer, Faction/Guild killer.

In addition, the more I've thought about this thread, the more it seems that Murder Hobos is probably the best way to go. Short, sweet and to the point. Just Chaotic Evil the whole concept, and play it out until it seems beyond boring. For me, at least, that seems far more interesting than planning, plotting, drinking wine and verbally assaulting others...but never actually seeing anything manifest.

[Deathgrowl]

In addition, the more I've thought about this thread, the more it seems that Murder Hobos is probably the best way to go. Short, sweet and to the point. Just Chaotic Evil the whole concept, and play it out until it seems beyond boring. For me, at least, that seems far more interesting than planning, plotting, drinking wine and verbally assaulting others...but never actually seeing anything manifest.

I don't like calling it murder hobos, because it just comes with the cartoon villain connotation. I did want the more open and brazen chaotic evil stuff myself, but I found it was difficult to even find people sharing that idea (who are also actively playing) and aren't just designed to PvP absolutely everyone and everything they encounter.

Another problem I think is with what was tried here is indeed the lack of focus. Not just because of timezones, in other words, but because the "mission statement" (if you can call it that) was so vague. There's nothing concrete to unify behind. No shared, clear goal. Just developing a network of evil unfortunately doesn't work as a goal.

So in the end my evil character was RCRed into something else. I'm not averse to trying again, but before I make a new character, I need to know what sort of concrete goals the potential group will have. And I need to know that I can log in and find RP with it. Otherwise it just isn't worth it.

[Steve]

Yeah, I totally agree—Murder Hobos makes me cringe. I mean, it's a joke, used once, but as a group label...ugh.

Anyway, yeah, something Chaotic Evil that has a pretty clear raison d'etre AND is like only 49% PvP motivated. I'm definitely into Character-versus-Character antagonistic RP, which is why I'm currently investing lots of RP into my Crusader PC, specifically to be an antagonist to Tekill's idea here.

But the idea needs some sturdier legs, no doubt.

Essentially, in the Forgotten Realms we have Faiths under Beshaba, Malar, Talona, Talos and Umberlee that work for a basis of Chaotic-but-not-stupid-Evil role-play. But even if not starting under such an umbrella, what is my main concern in RPing the alignment is:

Typically, they could only be made to align and work with others through force or coercion, with leaders lasting only as long as they could thwart attempts at being overthrown or assassinated.Ultimately, these characters will commit any act to further their own ends.

This aspect, for me, is what makes it NECESSARY for us Players to either HAVE or OOC SETUP a "Boss," that "keeps our PCs inline" while our PCs adventure and develop together. And preferably from Level 1.

[Deathgrowl]

I'm fine with going from level 1 as a group. Just give me reasons to!

[Tekill]

To me the Murder Hobo is a term used for the most feared and hated being on the server. Orcs, Liches, Beholders, and Drow, do not even hold a candle to a murder hobo in terms of how much they are dreaded. I find this halarious.

I personally loved The Murder Hobo Gang as a name. At least OOC, as we have not called ourselves that in game. It is an ooc term, that I think would be immersion breaking if we started using in game. We do not actually have a name as of yet and I am not in a hurry to give ourselsves one. I hoping something will come along organically or naturally as we actually start making our moves.

Right now we are just a gang of baddies trying to find easy ways to make gold. A motley crue of thugs and grifters. Our grandiose OOC goals are not necessarily directly related to what we are doing right now. Baby steps.

Speaking of grandiose goals. I do not know if we would call creating a network, a mission statement, but that is definately a goal. The network would provide support for evil players to be able to wave their evil banners without being being rejected by the rest of the server. Create our own cliques I suppose.

The network goal is a long way off. We need to get established first. At this point I wont go into the specifics unless you are a member and willing to contribute.

I think a better mission statement for us, is: If you do not try then you have already failed.

We are having a lot of fun so far. We are trying to be the bad guys but in a way that is fun for everyone, and still realistic. We are taking our time and I think somthing is starting to slowly gel.

We are keeping at it.

[Steve]

The network would provide support for evil players to be able to wave their evil banners without being being rejected by the rest of the server. Create our own cliques I suppose.

This is essentially already the case...considering "own cliques."

See, the whole quoted sentence is such a goblymagook of IC/OOC mumbo-jumbo that, how can anything be taken seriously?

1. "evil players" reference. Are the Players evil, or do we have Players with evil-minded PCs??
2. "wave evil banners" reference. Are you literally talking about waving IG banners (flags), or is this an metaphoric reference? Like, wearing your Evil "on your sleave" or actually wearing a Evil for President 2018 button?
3. "being rejected by the rest of the server" reference. Is this an issue where 1 clique gets OOC ignored, or...how does one IC ignore it when EVIL COMES UP IN YOUR F-ING FACE MOTHERTRUCKER!!! Understand me here? Does the "rest of the Server" also include DMs, who I guess are also players, but...is this an IC or an OOC reference?
4. "own cliques" reference. Already exists. Is that the point of MORE Surface Evil RP? If so, I'm pretty sure I'm not speaking just for myself in saying that isn't what is wanted nor NEEDED here. What IS NEEDED is a New Storyline between Players and their PCs, where a protagonist/antagonist relationship is set in motion by a combination of IC/OOC baselines, and developed further in combined willingness to progress a Storyline that includes ANY Character that bumps in or weaves in, during the actual Storybuilding. And not just storytelling.

Look, an Evil network/grapevine is not a thing in itself. The Forgotten Realms is World based on Organizations, and how they do or do not interact with each other, based on a giant fat weighty bag of this/that. That said, Canon Lore itself supports how much Evil Organizations fight among each other, with just as much vehemence as Good orgs fight against Evil orgs (and vice versa).

Maybe when the idea of "network" is proposed, that is more along the lines of "support network." A support network would very, very, very likely be an Organization in form. Guild, faction, brotherhood...you name it.

Just a bunch of random Evil morals Characters getting together for handshakes and to say "I got yer back, bro" is just not enough. Evil guilds on BGTSCC have already done that plenty, and I know, cause I've been in and out of them for years now, seeing the same general concept, which eventually loses interest in the majority of Players within, because a) it goes nowhere, b) it goes nowhere, and c) you have little interaction with the entirety of the Sword Coast IG world, because an Evil Clique is relegated to a few rooms in the basement of their Evil Stronghold, with hardly much World Support to effect change upon the Server, ingame.

Look...what works on BGTSCC the most, in terms of groups/concepts and alignment-based RP? Good-minded Guilds/factions (and that are FR Lore based, preferably). So, why not simply EMULATE that tried and true script, but simply turn the alignment-mold on its head? Script up a strong binding reason to be together, adventure together, grow together (best accomplished via starting at Level 1), accomplish step by step goals in the Leveling process, feed the "faction" with storybuilding and RP write-ups that the entire Server Community can enjoy on the Forums, etc.

Literally, pick a place, like Winding Way or Blushing Mermaid or a rock outcropping in the Lawless North were a Character can always find this Group, and keep with it, in order to swing the pendulum of attention toward this effort, so that it regenerates and not only entices new members/players, but retains the energy of the existing members.

There is nothing like giving these ideas "a try," but ending up never finding anyone online nor have any alternate form of expression for the RP available.

[Tekill]

Splitting hairs. Prejudging before anything is even started and not giving our fellow players a little credit that they might know at least the tiniest bit about how things are done. Common things we all guilty of on this server.

Steve you opted out. So I do not need to explain every nuance of our guild or its plans to you. Your splitting hairs in an effort to find fault for something you chose not not to even be a part of.

Fyi we are doing some things right, because we are not idiots. We are also not taking it too seriously because we are having a good time.

[Steve]

Well, if you want to split hairs, I didn't opt out so much as couldn't find the something to opt into!

No, you don't have to explain every nuance, but you DID make a big post as to "some issues" to setting up "my" evil guild.

You yourself posited the "nut shell" of the problem of losing 9 to 11 players was "timing and willingness to commit," and you started asking questions within your update post. My bad if that was rhetorical Tekill.

My response takes aim at maybe why the commitment didn't last. But specifically, it is difficult to understand what your ideas and plans for a Guild is, and look to how to join the RP Idea ,when it's very difficult to parse your written description of the idea itself!

Take it or leave it mate!

[Tekill]

We have about 8 pages of parsing my description of this guild so far. If you need any more info just go back to page one for any of your parsing needs.

The answer to your first 3 questions is: both.

The fourth question you asked in response to my gobblygook you answered yourself.

[Steve]

Too bad someone else had to clear up your 8 pages, Tekill!

[metaquad4]

I need to echo some of the sentiments here. The idea of "uniting all the evil factions" has been thought of before and in and of itself, it is exceedingly half-baked in the current form.

1) What is the in-universe reason that these factions are uniting? What are they trying to achieve? What is the goal, what is the story?
2) Why would the lawful evil groups and the chaotic evil groups work together? What advantage would it be for say. . .darkhold to work with a group of loose cannons? Again, what is the story?

There needs to be something concrete. What are the character's purposes for doing this, what do the factions gain, what is the catalyst that causes these characters and factions to decide to band together in the first place?

I get that sometimes RP needs to be planned in some respects, but it also needs to flow organically together. What happens when all the evil factions get in a meeting room and sit together? How do they then stick together?

If this was mentioned early, feel free to re-iterate it. I've seen this happen lots of times in the past and without a goal or a plan, it never sticks.

It needs to be something concrete, something achievable, and it needs to have short-term and long-term stages. Short-term to provide things to go, long-term to keep players invested in their characters for a lengthy period of time. Concrete, meaning clear, easily understandable, and having elements that are already present. Achievable meaning realistic. "Let's blow up the Gate" isn't realistic, we all know it won't happen. It needs to be something that could feasibly happen to keep people invested and interested.

Just some stuff to think on.

P.S. I'd start with raiding Bereghost. One of my previous characters had done that about 3 times on my time on this server, that is certainly achievable! (But make sure you have a reason xD)