Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:02 am Ooh, dropping consumables from Mudd's would be an interesting shift... I like the sound of it.

I'm not sure how players with Alchemist PCs would feel, though.

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:10 am

So please, why not make the greater rewards, with or without (greater) challenges, be the design paradigm? Why not steer players toward factions and guilds and party-up situations that require diverse skill sets? Why not have social skill DCs just like the instances where moving a Boulder requires a STR DC??

well for once i see

Mimic
-Mimic roll STR check to entangle my PC, if my PC fails
-Mimic roll Dex check to make sure my PC does not slip through

i am happy with this

gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:10 am

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:02 am Ooh, dropping consumables from Mudd's would be an interesting shift... I like the sound of it.

I'm not sure how players with Alchemist PCs would feel, though.

They'll probably be pissed off that their specific form of "grind" RP has been nerfed!!

The Consignment is sooooo artificial and OOC, really. Like how UD/Surface items are on the same list. LOL. I could go on and on....

But like I said, design for RP between Characters (players), between groups/parties/factions. Instances of this already exist on BGTSCC. Sadly, you know what? Players avoid them. Not because they don't like them, but because the Big Payout is earned through solo play on BGTSCC, not via RP.

Take away the profit(s) through solo play, and increase the profit (meta and concrete) gained via group +/- Role-play/social skills, and you'll see the Big Shift happen right before you very eyes!

*waits for the comment that that Big Shift will be players leaving the Server. lol. There is a lid for every pan....*

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:40 am

gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:10 am

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:02 am Ooh, dropping consumables from Mudd's would be an interesting shift... I like the sound of it.

I'm not sure how players with Alchemist PCs would feel, though.

They'll probably be pissed off that their specific form of "grind" RP has been nerfed!!

The Consignment is sooooo artificial and OOC, really. Like how UD/Surface items are on the same list. LOL. I could go on and on....

But like I said, design for RP between Characters (players), between groups/parties/factions. Instances of this already exist on BGTSCC. Sadly, you know what? Players avoid them. Not because they don't like them, but because the Big Payout is earned through solo play on BGTSCC, not via RP.

Take away the profit(s) through solo play, and increase the profit (meta and concrete) gained via group +/- Role-play/social skills, and you'll see the Big Shift happen right before you very eyes!

*waits for the comment that that Big Shift will be players leaving the Server. lol. There is a lid for every pan....*

Don't reduce solo profit, but do increase party profit.

Solo profit is already quite low unless you can grind bosses.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:47 am Don't reduce solo profit, but do increase party profit.

Solo profit is already quite low unless you can grind bosses.

Yeah, I agree with you. I just so enjoy taunting the Soloists (so says a soloist himself!).

An example of trying to force grouping is the stone giant area, which has a clever design where you need to pull two levers far away from each other to enter. Unfortunately until the STR checks were considerably lowered and people started using dimension door like abilities often this area was practically not used at all.

The other way to try to force group play by raising the difficulty is, again, leading more people to powerbuild and optimize first and group later. Right now there are 22 players online, how many of those characters can group with say, a level 16 ?

Let's say 4, which is likely generous, one is likely chatting at a campire or in other non-combat RP, one is solo grinding, and if you're really lucky two are a in group already. First you have to find them somehow then see if they want to group up, etc, you know the drill.

Now imagine all the server is oriented towards group play with higher difficulty, your build is average and so are your items. What are you going to do ??? You'll log out.

I'll use colours and lines to get my point across

Valefort wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:02 am More difficulty and mandatory group play in general is not happening, as some players cannot group most of the time this would push them more towards powerbuilding or simply leaving. At best some encounters will be made more challenging while being purely optional and not more rewarding.

BGTSCC is of course infinitely better when you get to RP and group up instead of soloing, I doubt you'll find many people saying the contrary ! However it's often not a possibility at all so making group play mandatory is completely suicidal.

@Simian

Even with how varied an numerous the areas are under level 20 you can't find an easy one at some levels ? If so ok, some monsters can be tweaked to make things easier rather than making a whole new bunch of easy mode areas who would promptly become Xvartlands.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:59 am BGTSCC is of course infinitely better when you get to RP and group up instead of soloing, I doubt you'll find many people saying the contrary ! However it's often not a possibility at all so making group play mandatory is completely suicidal.

You absolutely right, Monsieur.

But I'd like to NOT use or see used the word "forced," but instead "steered" or "invited," and to USE THE MECHANICS toward this end. If the Stone Giants area is an example of how good things go bad, then simply change it back man!

When the environment is seen and KNOWN to give greater rewards in X way, players are going to chase that golden goose. It really doesn't matter what that X is, cause players will figure it out.

So kinda simply, if you make groups/parties, RP chat areas, etc. give the greater Reward, and players EXPERIENCE that, you think they'll ignore it or still continue to choose the Greater Solo Profiteering Paradigm? I for one do not doubt that there would be a large shift towards what gives a greater payout.

From what I can gather from player and staff responses in this thread, every thing is easy, and even when it was difficult, someone went in and fiddled the knobs and made it easy dumb, just cause.

What about settling on JUST ONE THING that is designed to be difficult, and let the community accept that? What would JUST ONE THING be acceptable to you (anyone) to be difficult/challenging, and maybe...fun?

Valefort wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:59 am Right now there are 22 players online, how many of those characters can group with say, a level 16 ?

Let's say 4, which is likely generous, one is likely chatting at a campire or in other non-combat RP, one is solo grinding, and if you're really lucky two are a in group already. First you have to find them somehow then see if they want to group up, etc, you know the drill.

And the grouped ones are usually doing circles at xvarts/wyverns - which in itself is boring as hell

Hoihe wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:47 am Solo profit is already quite low unless you can grind bosses.

There is no profit in grinding - only a chance to gain rewards (read: novel items). This is because "financial gains" are regulated [read: suppressed] due to the nature of the BGTSCC economy.

Bottom Line Up Front: BGTSCC's economy incentivizes grinding. Change the economy to incentivize Skills-based talents and you will see more RP without neutering any specific build or play style.

Pro•fit prŏf′ĭt (noun) - Financial gain from a transaction or from a period of investment or business activity, usually calculated as income in excess of costs or as the final value of an asset in excess of its initial value.

This is where anecdotal examples are typically raised to "prove" how that one time at band camp someone did in fact "profit" from a solo grind.

Income is the amount of money or its equivalent received during a period of time in exchange for labor or services, from the sale of goods or property or as profit from financial investments [read: Rewards for time spent].

The server’s economy has four components: Labor, Goods, Services, and Rewards.

Players control their labor -Adventuring, Manufacturing (Wands and Potions), RP

Players only control whether to acquire Goods, which consist of three basic groups - Equipment, Consumables, and Novelty, because the production of all primary goods is server-controlled.

Players retain control of their Services, i.e. Skills-based profiteering (wand and potion making, high appraisal proxy-buyers), Player Merchants via the forum, and how much to charge via Mudd’s Auction.

Players selling to NPC Storefronts is server-controlled. Here, Skills-based profiteering is suppressed. No character is able to secure "appraised value" for any item in excess of 1,400 gold pieces.

This is why the BGTSCC economy is suppressed. This is why Grinding is necessary. This is why certain builds and play styles are optimized.

But group play already does give better rewards compared to solo play ... even just mechanical ones ... you kill things much faster, you get RP EXP, the carrots exist.

Also I'm not saying everything is easy, some encounters/bosses are not easy at all, even with knowledge and I don't want to generally dumb down the difficulty either ! What I gather from this thread is people want more diversity in terms of difficulty, from easier to harder.

As for economy being suppressed I'm not sure what you mean by that, the loot coming from grinding, solo or not is by far the main source of gold income, which is largely overly generous too.

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:09 amWhat about settling on JUST ONE THING that is designed to be difficult, and let the community accept that? What would JUST ONE THING be acceptable to you (anyone) to be difficult/challenging, and maybe...fun?

I'm working on a dungeon that will hopefully make powerbuilt parties cry. It'll be fun from a sadistic perspective, and also hopefully from a player perspective.

Hopefully, the reward will not make a party cry (That's wonderful news!)

Valefort wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:34 am As for the economy being suppressed, I'm not sure what you mean by that...

BGTSCC's Economy:
1. Stunshot Sling is an epic level sling on sale for 60,000 gold pieces by an NPC Vendor.
2. Any character who invests in Appraisal Skill Points can purchase this sling at a discount (Incentive to invest skill points).
3. Any character who takes a three-level dip in the Guild Thief PrC will also receive a 10 percent discount on top of their Appraisal Skill investment.
An epic item valued at 60,000 gold pieces is purchased for ~50,000 or less based on a player's build.

BGTSCC's Economy Suppressed:
1. Stunshot Sling is an epic level sling appraised at 60,000 gold pieces by a character who invests in Appraisal Skill Points.
2. Any character who invests in Appraisal Skill Points attempts to sell this sling for a higher price due to their innate understanding of its value (Incentive to invest skill points).
3. Any character who takes a three-level dip in the Guild Thief PrC attempts to sell this sling for a higher price due to their 10 percent discount on top of their Appraisal Skill investment.
An epic item valued at 60,000 gold pieces is sold for 1,400 or less in spite of the player's build.

Valefort wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:34 am ...the loot coming from grinding, solo or not is by far the main source of gold income, which is largely overly generous too.

There are ample claims of overly generous amounts of gold... I hold these claims lightly; meaning, I am neither convinced it's true or certain it is not true. Your comment however is consistent with my point - BGTSCC's economy incentivizes grinding.

AHAHAHAH

Theodore01 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:03 am Hopefully, the reward will not make a party cry (That's wonderful news!)

I'm of the philosophy that hard work is its own reward, so don't hold your breath.