BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

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YYA
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BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by YYA »

I would have written this in a recently locked thread -- expanding on one of my posts in the locked thread -- but since it is locked and I have not actually started a topic in General Discussion in many years, I think there is some avenue to have discuss about the over all server difficulty and how it has changed over the years.

I would like to begin this by asking how many of you actually still remember the first level of the cloakwood mines and the bugbears that resided within? How many of you still remember running infinite loops around this small map that was shaped like the number eight? Do you remember how just about any character was eventually able to do it by just getting their AC up suffieciently high? Do you remember when you could make any role-play build imaginable and still survive on this server? Well, at least I kind of do. And recently I tried to recreate of my more ancient characters, and I noticed that I could not, and simply because I did not have enough feats left to spare. There used to be a time on this server when you did not have to take Toughness, Steadfast Determination, and Blindfight in order to make do with a non-magical melee warrior. The general challenge of this server used to about getting sufficiently high AC and that was pretty much it. You could spend those three feats to get something else, maybe Iron Will, or whatever else general run of the mill role-play would have inspired you to pick. You could afford to make mistakes with your build, and those were at times synonymous with badges of honour. But these days, it just feels like you cannot afford to waste a single feat, or not to min-max your relevant ability scores.

I mean, the only way I would make a character like this on the server would be if it was a 100% RCR time period, I had a level 30 character to spare, and I would have all the necessary epic items bought and prepared to be muled over. For those who did not look at the build in question, it a single class Fighter build that ends up with 16 in every single ability score, and the whole role-play idea behind is to be wanderer of the lands that seeks to master different combat styles and tricks, in other words; different combat modes and combat maneuvers. A bit of a Jack-of-All Trades, Master-of-None. And were I to request comments to improve it, well, I know exactly what I would say: 'It lacks Steadfast Determination -- you are not going to slay just one basilisk and level up, you are going to slay hundreds and thousands, which means that you will eventually roll one and be turned to stone. It lacks Blindfight -- the caster mobs of this server have spells that provide concealment, in addition to AC, so unless you want to wait for their spells to run out, you better get that Blindfight to have at least small chance to land a hit. Also, your AB is just way too low -- you need to discard half of your feats and bee line to Weapon Focus just have some hope of hitting enemies that are not already considerably beneath your HD, and even though might make do by drinking those 1k a pop potions of Greater Heroism, the mobs on this server come armed with fixed dispels. You need to make these changes, unless your entire goal on this server is to just sit at a campfire talking about the soggy leaves in your cup, poured by your local elf or warlock, or just relying on the weekly quests to slowly level up.

These days, all classes have their must have feats. Before, a Wizard or Sorcerer could make do with just Defensive Casting mode to get rid of the Attacks of Opportunity, and these days I would just ask where is their Improved Combat Expertise for that +6 AC, since there are things that will see through invisibility and just flat out ignore your summons because your character is way easier to land hits against. And so on, and so on.

Thus, I have to conclude that role-play builds are no longer a feasible choice on this server. They have not been in a very long time, and no promotion of role-playing ideals will ever overcome the simple fact that you have to slay three or so thousand Basilisks with that instant Save or Die effect.

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So how to change this situation? Well, as I said in the other topic, this server would need the addition of easier areas. Areas with mobs that would have middling AB, AC, HP, Detection Skills, Damage, and armed with either melee or ranged weapons without auras or special abilities. This way, even the worst of the worst role-play builds could overcome the challenge at hand and level up. You could quite literally have large exterior maps running along the river Chiontar for level ranges of 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, and 21-25 and these areas could have rotation of of bandits, beasts, lizard men, bug bears, orcs, goblins, kobolds. drow, gibberlings, etc. Not to mention that even if the mobs on these areas would only give something like half of the experience their counterparts would give in the other areas of the server, those role-play characters could still make do, while the usual power builds would just pummel through it all in the exact same manner as they already in the other areas. Now, because easier experience is better experience, I would imagine that most people would in fact choose to grind in these generic areas -- which in and of itself gives the other areas of the server the following perk: you not clearing the Hilltop Ruins for the 132th time in a row, you might not have been there in weeks or months, which makes the whole dungeon suddenly a lot more exciting place to visit. It would make all the other areas far more exciting by the sheer virtue of not having seen those areas in a while. Not to mention that if you play during the low hours of the server, or when a DM event draws every player with an epic character into one specific location, there are areas your role-play character can challenge alone.

And if something similar is done for the Underdark, well, you no longer need to pick Blindfight at level three to overcome the Displacer Beasts, Steadfast Determination at level 6 or 9 to overcome the petrification from Basilisks, and the general harmful effects from mere proximity to mushrooms.

Oh, and these maps could be good places to meet characters of your own level range, which allows you to team up and challenge the areas you would find elsewhere. Because let us face it, if there is someone going through the Hilltop Ruins, by the time your character reaches the place, the other guy might have already entered the second or third level. Or by the time you reach the second level and the dragon, the other guy might have already turned around and gone back to the first level, if not excited the dungeon entirely.

And yeah, these maps may sound grindy and boring, but in my eyes those are insignificant detriments to the general good such areas would bring to this server. Year after year there is talk about promoting role-play builds, party-play -- and these were not an issue during the first years of the server when you just needed enough AC to survive -- the primary issue back then used to be how escape Baldur's Gate before the server crashed or something. :lol:

So, if you want to promote role-play characters, this server quite literally needs more of those easy mode areas where you can survive with AC alone. Otherwise, people will try, get fed up with the difficulty, and either RCR into a powerbuild or just leave the entire server behind.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by The_Sorting_Hat »

I'll sign under this. Not so much that we -need- new areas to grind in, but about the part where you really are required to pick one of the handful of powerbuilds to be in any way, shape or form viable. It's disheartening at the very least, being required to funnel down the only one "correct" path to build a caster or a fighter or so on.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Rhifox »

I don't feel funneled.

But I *do* dislike how BG is strictly balanced around "High AC High Damage" builds. You don't need a high AB on BG. Most bosses sit around 35-40 AC. The highest is 56, and that's just one isolated example. Most balance on BG is done in just inflating hitpoints (in the range of 5000+ for bosses, lol), inflating saves, and dumping on every immunity imaginable, which functionally means that anyone who builds towards anything other than high tank high DPR is basically left out. There needs to be other options.

... I also really don't like when mobs are given non-canon abilities (with the occasional 'hero' exception, who should be built towards player classes with the rules imposed by player classes, not 'just given random abilities from every class').

I for one would like to look at server encounter design going forwards, adjusting issues in existing content to make a better experience, but in terms of providing *new* dungeons, that requires builders, of which we do not have many - and maps take ages to make.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by teurgteurgowy »

The superior issue that I have seen so far on the server is:
- to much concentration on mechanics which leads to inflated mob HPs, save throws etc.,
- Above leads also to players that are focusing only on numbers: AC, DPS etc. because the server is not allowing non optimized chars. to have the same joyful play.

In my opinion, above leads into a drift of typical MMO game which is not what I want as for this I can play WoW or any other MMO game.

Possible solutions:
- Focus on animating the world from small things as this shows that the world lives,
- avoid constant "super extra quests where spells of high levels are flying like from a machine gun and every single being is able to cast them like a lemure, quasit, imp, mephit etc.",
- Create obligatory authorizations for some classes, especially those that are lore intense,
- Focus on storytelling and do not allow the lvl progression to be so fast as it is currently,
- Create the option for each PC to see how much EXP comes from mob slaying and how much from RP,
- Create an option that the DMs can post comments on a char. in game that is visible to the player on his char.,
- Create a grade system for RP (example of a scale: 0-10 as I assume everyone is able to understand the scale between 0 and 10),
- Less combat intensive plots (smashing everything around all the time is really not fun),
- Plots where the PCs can perma die (yes, forever with no coming back).

Radical solution:
- Clean the vault of all characters and start it a new especially that ToT is ahead,
- Cut the max. lvl. of each PC from 30 to something less,
- All PrCs need authorization,
- Only some basic classes (like: barbarian, fighter, rogue, thug, swashbuckler) do not require an authorization. Tech. speaking: authorization for almost every class.

Other proposition:
- Transit into 3.5 FR setting finally as at the end NWN2 runs on 3.5.
Last edited by teurgteurgowy on Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by AsuraKing »

Rhifox wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:32 pm But I *do* dislike how BG is strictly balanced around "High AC High Damage" builds. You don't need a high AB on BG. Most bosses sit around 35-40 AC. The highest is 56, and that's just one isolated example. Most balance on BG is done in just inflating hitpoints (in the range of 5000+ for bosses, lol), inflating saves, and dumping on every immunity imaginable, which functionally means that anyone who builds towards anything other than high tank high DPR is basically left out. There needs to be other options.
This x1000, as someone who pretty much exclusively plays a DC caster based cleric, I am absolutely useless outside of providing buffs to the beefy high AB characters. Nearly every boss (and a good deal of standard enemies too) are immune to 2/3 my offensive spellbook, which is a huge reason I simply dont care for 'adventure' or combat heavy DM events anymore...
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Snarfy »

YYA wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:14 pm You could quite literally have large exterior maps running along the river Chiontar for level ranges of 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, and 21-25 and these areas could have rotation of of bandits, beasts, lizard men, bug bears, orcs, goblins, kobolds. drow, gibberlings, etc. Not to mention that even if the mobs on these areas would only give something like half of the experience their counterparts would give in the other areas of the server, those role-play characters could still make do, while the usual power builds would just pummel through it all in the exact same manner as they already in the other areas.
+1. Numerous areas could also be revisited to lower the difficulty. Skilled players with a deep knowledge of mechanics will always find inventive ways to decimate content, but that doesn't mean that the difficulty should be tailored towards fending off uber-builds. To this day there are still areas I refuse to visit on any of my characters(particularly my rogue), because I know that if I don't buff/consumable to the teeth, or find a group, I'll get smacked around like a red-headed step child. And while I realize there is, for whatever reason, some odd bias towards having players party up rather than solo (psst, make dungeons easier = more characters visiting = more solo characters meeting others), there's really nothing beneficial to having areas/dungeons be insanely difficult to the point of them being a complete deterrent for players to visit at all. I also realize people enjoy a challenge, which is why some areas should remain untouched, but if you mitigate some of this...
Rhifox wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:32 pm Most balance on BG is done in just inflating hitpoints (in the range of 5000+ for bosses, lol), inflating saves, and dumping on every immunity imaginable, which functionally means that anyone who builds towards anything other than high tank high DPR is basically left out.
... from certain areas/dungeons, players are going to visit them more often. And if that means content is easier to pummel for some, who cares? More characters visiting those empty areas/dungeons, whether on their RP or uber builds, be it in party or solo, is a good thing. Meeting other characters in the wilderness, and not at bloody campfires, is far more immersive and interesting, and(imho) way too many amazing locations are collecting dust (IE: areas like the troll hills old mines, ice crystal caves, the invisible stalker cave of certain death in south moors, Durlags, etc).
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

I started in 2013, and I remember leveling being hard and slow. I wasn't great at building, so I only went out in groups. RP XP was very, very small. I started with +2 gear, but had a decent amount of +3 gear by Lv14, when my character met an unfortunate end. Second character got to all +3 gear and some +4 by level 17, inheriting only a few items from the first char, and no gold.

Compared to now, that was a very slow progression. It's very easy to get a lot of RP XP now, and chests can contain absurd amounts of gold; most of your gold used to come from selling Torm's Chipped Tooth to Maltz for 1100gp or whatever it was. If you found a chest with 243gp in it, you'd literally struck gold. (Back then, you had to split chests between the party, because the reset every 15 minutes or something, so you'd circle-grind until everyone in the group had hit the chest!)

I think that at present, things are close to the easiest they've been since I started on the server for players engaging content at their CR. Which isn't to say some areas aren't brutally hard; just that you can get to +4 gear and Lv30 more easily than ever before. (The loot rebalance helped this some; there was a CR 15 area that had tons of top-of-the-line loot due to lax standards or failure to check each other's work. It made the loot from your own level much easier though, so if you're grinding dungeons instead of Xvarts, you'll be rich by 30. It's way easier to get rich than it was back in 2013-2015.)
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Steve »

I wouldn't say the Server is difficult but for newbies. As soon as a new player has "burned" a few PCs in "feeling" out the Server, they realize how best to progress no matter what Build you choose (but obviously, the more DPS + AC build will always succeed).

So difficulty is really an OOC issue, a player knowledge issue.

But I also share in the opinion that Builds based on non-AC + high DPS will struggle because of the "balancing" done on mobs. The Lvl 30 nwn2 implementation of D&D 3.5 rules doesn't scale very well (and especially when one adds in epic level equipment now available from lvl 1 creation, via muling and lack of Lvl Reqs).

There is 1, maybe 2, tactics for a DC caster to progress via mob killing, with any sort of efficiency. That is super boring. And even then, Saves are so inflated for DC casters that success is also very low, to impossible.

But let's forget about the mechanics for a bit. It IS POSSIBLE to level to 30 via RP chat gain. And maybe a few bones thrown via DM rewards. That is a long road—I'm not sure how many players have the patience for that.

Essentially, how difficult is the Server if you take 435,000 XP for Level 30, divide by 1400 RP chat XP per hour—let's hope one can actually get that payout on average—and you get 311 hours of RP chat play to get to 30. Let's say one could average 1 hour of RP chat play per day, then under a year, BOOM!, max level.

Maybe we need a post titled BTSCC's Server Patience??

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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Hoihe »

Armour class alone feels strange. I remember 45-50 being enough AC when I started, and now you need 55 or even 60 if you want to make sure you only get hit on nat 20s.

Like, sure - we can get gear more easily... But that's a necessary thing as mobs were gives +2/+3 AB across the board thanks to "Enemies scale by CR if you are higher level than the area". We now have trashmobs with 34-37 AB spawning in groups of three making Mirror Image practically mandatory to deal with them. And they're crit immune and got impenetrable DR to boot!


And on Rhifox/Asura's remark... Yes, far too many creatures are immune to debuffs. Be it from wiz/cleric spellbooks, either flat immunities you cannot dispel or very high saves (that you cannot lower because immune to Level Drain). Or, in case of an entire class being built around a singular concept: Swashbuckler's Str/Dex drain. Like, Swashies work versus giants but... that's about it. Other equivalent bosses are immune the the primary thing they bring to the table.

Even on a powerbuilt/ideal swash/du/bard/SD build, you deal half the damage of the go-to melee character. You get good AC, but that's it. AB is lower, damage is lower,s trength is lower. But that's no issue because your job is to debuff enemies... which you cannot do because they're immune to you.



On Steve's post about blaster/DC casters. I would say not only are those boring, but feel borderline exploity to me. To round up an entire map of mobs and drop clouds at your feet does not feel very... plausible against enemies with a sense of self preservation. But that is what I've been told over and over and over again whenever I made a wizard, be it my UD imaskari frost mage, my sorc or surface wizards.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Rhifox »

Hoihe wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:52 pmAnd on Rhifox/Asura's remark... Yes, far too many creatures are immune to debuffs. Be it from wiz/cleric spellbooks, either flat immunities you cannot dispel or very high saves (that you cannot lower because immune to Level Drain). Or, in case of an entire class being built around a singular concept: Swashbuckler's Str/Dex drain. Like, Swashies work versus giants but... that's about it. Other equivalent bosses are immune the the primary thing they bring to the table.
It's not even just that they are immune to debuffs, but that they also don't need debuffs. In many fights I'm racing to get my debuffs off for flavor before the martial characters kill the mob, not because they're actually useful. It's a side-effect of mobs being designed to be easy for high AC high DPR characters - those characters don't need casters to 'even the playing field' for them. And bosses don't care if you even the playing field for yourself, because good luck chewing through that 5000+ HP through spells even if you manage to practically disable it (even cloudkill or energy drain will barely make a dent in that HP because it's 'bonus' HP, not Con/level HP).
Last edited by Rhifox on Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Hoihe »

Rhifox wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:05 pm
Hoihe wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:52 pmAnd on Rhifox/Asura's remark... Yes, far too many creatures are immune to debuffs. Be it from wiz/cleric spellbooks, either flat immunities you cannot dispel or very high saves (that you cannot lower because immune to Level Drain). Or, in case of an entire class being built around a singular concept: Swashbuckler's Str/Dex drain. Like, Swashies work versus giants but... that's about it. Other equivalent bosses are immune the the primary thing they bring to the table.
It's not even just that they are immune to debuffs, but that they also don't need debuffs. In many fights I'm racing to get my debuffs off for flavor before the martial characters kill the mob, not because they're actually useful. It's a side-effect of mobs being designed to be easy for high AC high DPR characters - those characters don't need casters to 'even the playing field' for them.
With that, I have not ran into issues. In Duos/Trios, bosses can take up to minutes to bring down. Even FGK.

Granted, my duos specifically consist of a low-damage debuffer melee tank, and a wizard or cleric most of the time.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Rhifox »

Hoihe wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:07 pmWith that, I have not ran into issues. In Duos/Trios, bosses can take up to minutes to bring down. Even FGK.

Granted, my duos specifically consist of a low-damage debuffer melee tank, and a wizard or cleric most of the time.
Generally, if I'm in a group, I feel like I'm just there to be a cheerleader for the martial characters in the party. Like, sure, I can debuff and throw out some spells and stuff, but they'd handle it just fine even if I wasn't there.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

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AsuraKing wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:06 pm ... as someone who pretty much exclusively plays a DC caster based cleric, I am absolutely useless outside of providing buffs to the beefy high AB characters. Nearly every boss (and a good deal of standard enemies too) are immune to 2/3 my offensive spellbook...
I also have a level 30 DC based cleric who is utterly useless versus anything above CR 22'ish, you are not alone. :dance: :|
Steve wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:49 pm There is 1, maybe 2, tactics for a DC caster to progress via mob killing, with any sort of efficiency. That is super boring. And even then, Saves are so inflated for DC casters that success is also very low, to impossible.
All I want for Christmas is a viable enchanter... that can load up on not transmutation spells, or cart around a buffed summon to face-tank everything while my enchantment spells endlessly get laughed at...
gedweyignasia wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:31 pm It's very easy to get a lot of RP XP now, and chests can contain absurd amounts of gold...
It's easy to get XP in general, and gold, and loot, yes. But I don't think that's necessarily the issue here, the issue being more of a "your build needs feats X, Y, and Z, 60 AC, and as much +4 gear as you can find, simply to survive"... assuming you're not playing a warlock, or a bard :lol:
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by Ewe »

Which part is specifically difficult? Can you summarize in a paragraph? I don't have time to read entire novels on the subject.

My general feeling is the content is fairly easy, just tedious to solo due to inflated enemy hp pools. In a group of 5-6 players it becomes very easy.

I don't think the game is designed to be easily soloable by all builds on the server, no. I think, misguided or not, the inflated HP pools were designed to encourage group play because this is a multiplayer game and group content is encouraged.

Most of the feedback I received was that the leveling experience was fairly easy, but tedious. This is the first time I'm really hearing anyone say the server is too difficult.
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Re: BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

Hoihe wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:52 pm Armour class alone feels strange. I remember 45-50 being enough AC when I started, and now you need 55 or even 60 if you want to make sure you only get hit on nat 20s.
This is a power creep issue. 45-50 used to be enough because most people were using +3 gear. Now everyone has +4 gear. I've tried repeatedly to explain why giving players more good items isn't the benefit they think it is, but people tend to see changes very myopically.
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