Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I found something that might have similar mechanics for general use:

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/bla ... index.html

Well, that looks like a class that absolutely no gish, but every armored caster is gonna want to take. Nice.

The Whistler wrote:Well, that looks like a class that absolutely no gish, but every armored caster is gonna want to take.

Really? Can you explain that?

It's widely accepted that gishes enjoy great defense while lacking in numbers and are commonly easy to dispel. This class addresses neither of these issues; it piles more defense on an archetype that already has tons of it while it offers almost nothing in the way of damage except for a gimmicky feature. Furthermore, it does not offer full spellcasting progression which makes it a tough sell to a gish that already struggles to reach 28+.

Meanwhile, a wizard10/am10/bsin10 can enjoy 15 more AC without paying any epic feats for it. Granted, the pre-epic feat requirement is steep but it allows him to focus on grabbing great intellects at epic levels.

I believe that removing the INT to AC feature and focusing more on light armored casting while offering at least 8/10 progression will make it much more desirable to gishes. Shaving a feat prerequisite would also be a good idea.

And it's only for Elves. But I guess Elves need some love too...because who wants to play an Elf?!?!

Steve wrote:And it's only for Elves. But I guess Elves need some love too...because who wants to play an Elf?!?!

Hoihe?

The Whistler wrote:It's widely accepted that gishes enjoy great defense while lacking in numbers and are commonly easy to dispel. This class addresses neither of these issues; it piles more defense on an archetype that already has tons of it while it offers almost nothing in the way of damage except for a gimmicky feature. Furthermore, it does not offer full spellcasting progression which makes it a tough sell to a gish that already struggles to reach 28+.

A bladesinger can reach 29CL. Wizard/EK/Bladesinger for example

Meanwhile, a wizard10/am10/bsin10 can enjoy 15 more AC without paying any epic feats for it. Granted, the pre-epic feat requirement is steep but it allows him to focus on grabbing great intellects at epic levels.

I think you didnt read the feats correctly. The INT bonus is capped at 5.

I believe that removing the INT to AC feature and focusing more on light armored casting while offering at least 8/10 progression will make it much more desirable to gishes. Shaving a feat prerequisite would also be a good idea.

As i said previously you didnt read the description correctly. Try and experiment with builds nad you wil lsee that this PRC is not very useful for any caster ( Blaster or DC ). To be more precise, it is not the most efficient PRC for casters.

first of all

Thids wrote:

is funny as heck!! cannot stop laughing.
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so that gives elves 2 classes and dwarves 2 classes but an orc only class is poo poo'ed on.

>>>bump<<<

aaron22 wrote:so that gives elves 2 classes and dwarves 2 classes but an orc only class is poo poo'ed on.

>>>bump<<<

You need a new thread about this.

mrm3ntalist wrote: A bladesinger can reach 29CL. Wizard/EK/Bladesinger for example

So can a wiz/dslayer/ek. It's still gonna have at best 33 unbuffed AB and it's still going to kill stuff slower than a wizard with reserve feats.

mrm3ntalist wrote: I think you didnt read the feats correctly. The INT bonus is capped at 5.

Okay, I didn't. But 10 bonus AC from MBP+INT for no epic feat investment is still quite a bit.

mrm3ntalist wrote:As i said previously you didnt read the description correctly. Try and experiment with builds nad you wil lsee that this PRC is not very useful for any caster ( Blaster or DC ). To be more precise, it is not the most efficient PRC for casters.

It's not inefficient. Combat Expertise is on almost every caster's shopping list and the other three worthless prerequisites are offset by a free metamagic and 3 epic feats, if you were to go autostill. For a non-good sorc blaster, there are other better alternatives.

The Whistler wrote:So can a wiz/dslayer/ek. It's still gonna have at best 33 unbuffed AB and it's still going to kill stuff slower than a wizard with reserve feats.

It is obvious this is false . Point taken though

Okay, I didn't. But 10 bonus AC from MBP+INT for no epic feat investment is still quite a bit.

Remeber that they still get ASF penalties from shields. An armored caster with shield can get more AC. With just MFP and no shield it is about the same AC.

mrm3ntalist wrote: It's not inefficient. Combat Expertise is on almost every caster's shopping list and the other three worthless prerequisites are offset by a free metamagic and 3 epic feats, if you were to go autostill. For a non-good sorc blaster, there are other better alternatives.

Make a build. Two actually. One with Bladesinger and one as a classic armored caster. You will see there are better ways without Bladesinger.

BTW there is one more possible change discussed that can help armored casters. It will make things much better but it is still too early.

The Whistler wrote:It's widely accepted that gishes enjoy great defense while lacking in numbers and are commonly easy to dispel. This class addresses neither of these issues; it piles more defense on an archetype that already has tons of it while it offers almost nothing in the way of damage except for a gimmicky feature. Furthermore, it does not offer full spellcasting progression which makes it a tough sell to a gish that already struggles to reach 28+.

Play the strengths of the class and consider its unbuffed AC, get AC gear like any standard fighter and you'll have a fighter with spells, albeit less AB and damage. It's not made for moving around like a christmas tree but for using spells when it's actually useful.

The big thing BS gets is it's Nova ability... Put a spell on the weapon and your first attack can pack a serious wallop! Save or X...Disintegrate, Avasculate, or something more creative! I would say having solid AC is a boon since, instead of using massive amounts of defensive spells the BladeSinger might just pop on a mirror images, shadowshield, Deez's and Premonition (plus maybe a backup or two) and fill up the majority of his slots with spells they can place on their sword to give them a big bang/Nova shot at the beginning of each encounter. I would say it has quite a bit different flavor over the W/EK/DS type of gish.

It's kind of interesting how some classes worked on have concerns from some folks about being OP and then others post as to how they don't bring anything new. All in all it is a balanced class with some flavor that was requested and got a decent amount of support so it got picked up by Valefort and we are working to implement it. Hopefully some folks enjoy it.

Wow, just wow. The synergy is perfect, so perfect. Now all that talk in this thread and my EK thread make sense, why my suggestion to remove the two useless EK feats and replace them was immediately rebuffed, they are not so useless now and it would have ruined the synergy.

Just for Elves.

First, correction on the AC gain, its 13 ac: INT 5, MFC (chainmail) 6, Tumble (20) 2 = 13. Thats 7 more than a Palemaster build plus the ability to avoid AoO moving around in combat.

Speaking of PM - Sorc 6 / Ek 4 / BS 10 / ASoC 10.

That is where the synergy lies, what this has all been about in both threads. A better blaster than the PM blaster build, and no need for a bone arm. Just for elves.

That extra meta magic feat it gains at 4 (better than a wizard btw) means it only net costs you three feats (Martial prof, Dodge (+1ac) + Wpn focus (+1ab)) As Chad says CE is staple in most builds so no loss having that, EK provides a qualy feat for BS, EK provides a qualy feat for ASoC, that level 4 BS feat provides the other qualy feat. That leaves two feats free before 20, then all those epic feats free to blast with (or go combat insight if you like). Armoured, with 7 more ac than the PM.

Even the 16 (low bab) and 14 (high bab) split is just right, for that 22 bab that was mentioned as being needed for gishes.

But this gish is a blaster (Ie. normal/em/max orbs and igms) for elves.

I love how immediately after the draft was posted the talk was steered towards comparing with armoured casters and to focus on the cool weapon ability. No need, just compare it to the PM blaster (Btw, the wording of that feat says 'Hostile spells' not damage spells, that include dispels/breaches etc?)

PM summons? Meh. Stun/ crit Immune? Stone body covers that when needed (works with still spell). +2 CON? d6 v d8 means that nets you 10hp. So that leaves the 3xday death spell V the 2day slow spell, and the PM gets better fort saves.

In its place we get blaster, just for elves, that has all the tank defences mentioned in both threads, plus an AC in the high fifties. It can melee through the low/mid mobs with or without summon, then blast the high ones / players.

But man, the synergy between combining those classes, I have a hard time believing it was accidental.

But then I'm tired.

BigJ