The Bladesinger PRC

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Tantive
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The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Tantive »

This class is close to my heart, for the arcane paladinesque roleplay thats tied to it, its abilities and rp fluff. And I want to have the discussion going again. I wrote down a concept and hope to gain a bit of traction. This was a combination of two sourcebooks concept.
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Bladesinger

Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a
harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle tactics seem beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Bladesingers have a treasured place in elf society, balancing the joys of art and magic with the skill of masterful fighting, and so bladesingers are well-respected by other elves. They usually serve as itinerant guardians and champions of the elf community at large rather than tying themselves to one particular settlement. Multiclass fighter/wizards can become bladesingers most easily, though any elf who can wield a martial weapon and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger.

Bladesinging ranger/wizards, rogue/wizards, and bladesinger bards are not unknown.

Most bladesingers work alone, sufficient unto themselves, but in larger communities they sometimes have the opportunity to fight together in the same combat. Bladesingers are normally trained singly by another bladesinger, and the concept of anything as formalized as a bladesinger school is an absurd notion to them.

Requirements:

Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Still Spell
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Wood Elf
Alignment: Non-evil
Spellcasting: Able to cast arcane spells of 1st level.
Skills: Concentration 4, Perform 3, Tumble 2

Class Features:

- Hit Die: d8
- Base Attack Bonus: High.
- High Saves: Reflex, Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: None
- Armor Proficiencies: Light.
- Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier.
- Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, Lore: Arcana, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nobility & Royalty, Lore: Religion, Parry, Perform, Spellcraft, Tumble.


Class Abilities:

Level 1: Bladesong Style, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2: Bonus Feat
Level 3: Lesser Spellsong
Level 4:
Level 5: Bonus Feat
Level 6: Song of Celerity
Level 7: Greater Spellsong
Level 8: Bonus feat
Level 9:
Level 10: Song of Fury

- Spellcasting: At every level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability.

- Bladesong Style: When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her class level, up to a maximum of her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. This bonus will not stack with the AC bonus granted by Invisible Blade or Duelist.

- Lesser Spellsong (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), the bladesinger can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively.

- Song of Celerity (Ex): Starting at 6th level, when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other) and using the full attack action, the bladesinger can cast one bladesinger spell (or arcane spell with a casting time of 1 action or less) each round as a free action.

- Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 7th level or higher ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor.

- Song of Fury (Ex): When a 10th-level bladesinger makes a full attack with a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), she can make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack and each other attack made in that round take a –2 penalty. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the bladesinger might make before her next action.

- Bonus Feat: At 2nd, 5th, and 8th level, the bladesinger gets a bonus feat. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any metamagic feat, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.
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Elyssa Symbaern - Bladesinger
Isioviel Fereyn - Elven Ranger
Charisa Flomeigne - Scion of Siamorphe
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Valefort
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Valefort »

Just on the feasibility :

Song of Celerity : not sure it's doable, I can't see how. Best I can think of at first is giving some spell ability feats that can be activated instantly or the equivalent of blood scars / hierophant runes.

Song of Fury (Ex): the extra attack wouldn't stack with haste spell

Now on the power of the class, as much as I want a bladesinger class in as is it's a must take. Wiz 5/ EK 10 / Bladesinger 10/ dragonslayer 5 ..

And you get a 27 BAB, CL 30 mage. Self buffing a mage can get +11 AB and we can assume a base DEX or STR of 18 .. plus let's say one weapon focus feat.

That's 27 (BAB) + 4 (STR/DEX mod) +11 (buffs) +1 (feats) = 43 AB

A base DEX or STR of 18 lets you pour points in INT almost exclusively so you can end up with 27 base INT, to make full use of the INT to AC bonus, spells and DC.

AC wise you would stand at :

10 (base) +3 (tumble since it also opens up that skill) + 4 (chain shirt) +10 (INT to AC) + 6 (DEX) +6 (IMA) +5 (shadow shield) +4 (dodge boots) + 4 (deflection bonus) + 4 (shield spell) = 56 AC

With the other usual arcane spells that means invincibility.

Damage wise it would be at : 1d6 (base) + 5 (GMW) + 10 (INT to damage) + 1d4 (elemental damage on the weapon) = 21 per hit with a rapier. Not huge but totally playable, replace dragonslayer with swashbuckler and you reach 31 damage, good, but only gets 28 CL.

Also something would need to be developed so that longsword can be used one handed when you have nothing in the off hand.

The bonus feats also offset the heavy requirements, as it is that's way too good.
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Rasael
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Rasael »

Song of Celerity could be a form of auto-quicken spell 1-9, granted while the mode is active. It might need a constraint to only allow spells with casting times of less than one round. With spell failure for longer spells, while the mode is active. That's possible.

The issue with the Bladesinger has historically been that it empowers arcane gishes. As Valefort writes. But this is (I believe) the first time we're having the discussion since the dispel-fix and the large update.

So its fair to say it warrants a discussion? Try to make it balanced and come up with builds to exploit it.
Also something would need to be developed so that longsword can be used one handed when you have nothing in the off hand.
Not sure what this means? You can already wield the longsword one-handedly. You get a 1.5 damage modifier because you have nothing in your off-hand, so the game assumes you're wielding it with two hands. But it works with the one-hander feat, if my memory about that is correct.

The previous proposal for the Bladesinger was to have its animations be replaced by a mode which works like One-hander. That could handle the attack animations, if that's what you meant. But that would have to be developed, if it goes that way.
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Steve
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Steve »

The Bladesinger PrC would actually get me to play an Elf. So let THAT weigh on the debate! :shock: :lol:

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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by chad878262 »

Steve wrote:The Bladesinger PrC would actually get me to play an Elf. So let THAT weigh on the debate! :shock: :lol:
It tells me it's OP Steve... :P


Being serious though it is OP... Consider Eldritch Knight gets d6 HP and 9/10 caster progression w/ high BAB while BladeSinger is getting high BAB, full caster progression, d8 hp plus other beneficial perks and bonus feats and you will see my QC face going. :shock:

I also love the PRC and the RP behind it, but I think it would be at most 6/10 progression unless it was debuffed in other ways, such as making it medium BAB and d6 HD or some such (off the top of my head). If it was full progression there would be scores of W5/EK10/BS10/DS5 builds running around with full caster level and 27 BAB. It'd be a feat starved build, but with CL30 and BAB 27 it'd be easy to create and level throughout.

edit: The one benefit of our server is that since SB doesn't get INT to damage until level 5 instead of 3 you wouldn't have many making W/EK/SB/BS builds as the CL would cap at 28, but frankly that is till really strong considering what you would get by having decent DEX for AB + MAX INT for more spells, decent DC's, plus double dipping it for damage on your rapier...

edit 2: Kaedrin only gave BS progression on odd levels (5/10) so I think that would be fine, makes the player decide upon capping out at CL28 (if using both EK and BS) or not going past level 7 BladeSinger to allow for reaching CL30. Further, Kaedrin didn't give bonus feats, just mobility, spring attack and combat casting, which means the BS wouldn't be getting free metamagic feats either. If implemented as Kaedrin did I would say it is similar in power to the DragonSlayer with different flavor if it was implemented in this manner.
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Storm Munin
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Storm Munin »

Explain the very racial bias of your suggestion please.
I am not thinking of wild elves or drow btw, I wonder were halfelf went from the original prcs and lore.
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Tantive
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Tantive »

Storm Munin wrote:Explain the very racial bias of your suggestion please.
I am not thinking of wild elves or drow btw, I wonder were halfelf went from the original prcs and lore.
Its exceedingly rare for it to be taught to half elves, and probably frowned upon. More so in the time period we are currently in, then after. In the Complete Book of Elves, it even stipulates a few things.:

Please note: Elves never teach this style to non-elves, including half-elves and drow (the latter of whom have their own teachers and their own style anyway). Elves make no exception to this rule, even for those who have proven themselves eternal friends to the elves or those who have married into elven life.

Elves have several reasons for not doing so. The first is that this style could be a terrible weapon against the elves should any non-elf students choose to use it that way. Though they may trust someone with their lives, the teaching of the bladesong is most definitely a racial secret--a secret that will not be revealed even under pain of death.

The only conceivable way for a non-elf to gain this knowledge is by using powerful magicks to force it from a practitioner. In such a case, elves would swear the blood oath and doggedly hunt the thief until he or she is destroyed. They would not hesitate to use every trick at their command.

The second is that there are so few teachers of bladesinging that they have no desire to devote the time required to any other then elves. Although this is biased against non-elves, bladesinging masters are adament about not teaching any other then elves. While a few other creatures might have the grace neccesairy for the intricacies of the bladesong, they certainly do not have the judgement and the discernment most elves possess.

Finally, and most compellingly, few other beings have the time necessary to properly learn bladesinging. In the years it takes to master even the rudiments of the bladesong, a human could raise a family, build a succesfull business, and retire a wealthy man. There are numerous other ways to become a fierce fighter, all of which demand less time then learning the bladesong. Even most elves are not willing to take the time necessary to learn this technique. Only the most fiercely devoted will spend the decades required for this fighting style.

Elyssa Symbaern - Bladesinger
Isioviel Fereyn - Elven Ranger
Charisa Flomeigne - Scion of Siamorphe
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thids
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by thids »

Where did the non-evil requirement come from?
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Tantive
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Tantive »

Thids wrote:Where did the non-evil requirement come from?
Bladesingers are exemplars and required to defend the elves and promoting their principals and way of life. In the original 2e edition, the rendition of Bladesinger stipulated Lawful Good or Neutral Good only.

This however with newer editions makes it difficult to worship the Seldarine, as they are Chaotics.
Elyssa Symbaern - Bladesinger
Isioviel Fereyn - Elven Ranger
Charisa Flomeigne - Scion of Siamorphe
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thids
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by thids »

Well... neither of the bladesinger versions in 3.5 have any alignment restrictions. Furthermore, protecting the elven way of life by no means implies good alignment. Paladins were humans only in 2nd edition, rangers good only... I see no reason to give bladesingers alignment restrictions. An evil bladesinger is no more outlandish than a good aligned tiefling, or an evil aasimar.
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Tantive
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Tantive »

An evil elf is an antithesis of what a Bladesinger is. An evil elf is already rare thing in of it self, especially in the sort of chaotic good societies the evil elves are executed. An evil Bladesinger out of all the rare evil elves...?

This is not just a class but a way of life, that is taught under utmost scruteny by a master. Moreso from places where there exists Mythals to protect from evil.

I'm googling like mad to find it again, but there even exists forms of the bladesong, where the knowledge gets stripped away by Corellon himself if it is abused. Selfishness, apathy is not part of the ways, and downright evil acts is just a big big no no.

It is as outlandish as a Good Paladin of Bane, and an evil Paladin of Tyr.

While the Bladesingers group themselves into overlapping Lodges and Knighthoods as an institution, they normally do not travel together in groups, but instead wander separately to better spread the ways of the Tel'Quessir and defend the ways of elvenkind, roving from one elven settlement to the next as troubleshooters, and dealing with whatever problems they come across, honor-bound to come to the aid of any elf in distress they come across. In their travels they are treated with the utmost respect and admiration by the elves they meet, being treated as heroes in the communities they enter, much as a human Paladin would be in a human village. They are the champions of the Tel'Quessir, the Knights of The People and defenders of the elven way of life, practicing an ancient and honored elven art and giving their lives if necessary to defend elven society, and they are accorded status of heroes and the respect such due such a station whenever they are encountered

Quite frankly, I wouldn't even mind and somewhat would prefer Application only PRC for Bladesinger, but theres resistance to making any more App only classes.
Elyssa Symbaern - Bladesinger
Isioviel Fereyn - Elven Ranger
Charisa Flomeigne - Scion of Siamorphe
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metaquad4
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by metaquad4 »

I'd reduce casting progression to 6/10 (at the very least), as it stands it'll be very strong even with that.

Arcane Gishes could use some more variety, I agree (They aren't the powerhouses they used to be, so, I don't see any issue with empowering them a little with a new class). Though, I'm not sure we should start with a class bound by race. Personally, I'd prefer we see some universal classes first for the archetype. Something a wider audience can enjoy.

Probably also 1 bonus feat, at the very most.
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The Whistler
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by The Whistler »

I'll just leave this here. :^)

Duskblades, Cleansing blades

Evil bladesingers might be virtually unheard of, but the bladesong is not as well guarded a secret as elves might want to think. I'd also like to bring Deathsingers into the argument but I'm not sure whether they are canon or just fanfic. A lot of people seem to think it's the former. Since asking to incorporate all the different bladesong styles as separate prcs would be silly, I think the alignment staying open is a fair compromise.
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by Flasmix »

This class seems stupidly OP. It has so many perks and almost zero downfalls.
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Re: The Bladesinger PRC

Unread post by The Whistler »

Gishes are never gonna be able to pile as much damage, or AB as a divine character. Furthermore, they are vulnerable to breaches regardless of their CL. I don't see what the fuss is about.
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