Were did our UnderDark Dms go?

[Iso]

The only adjacent creatures in a zone that can be safely traveled too from the starting area are beetles or kobolds that are very deadly to low to medium AB classes. I am not sure if the difficulty was intended as part of the setting which seems to suit the hardcore drow players rather than the casual player that is more frequent on the surface.

I'm actually finding myself doing well on a non-ECL adjusted race with negative Strength and Con modifiers and Low AB. That means I have penalties to hit and comparable HP to a Wizard.

[TheVoid]

The only adjacent creatures in a zone that can be safely traveled too from the starting area are beetles or kobolds that are very deadly to low to medium AB classes. I am not sure if the difficulty was intended as part of the setting which seems to suit the hardcore drow players rather than the casual player that is more frequent on the surface.

I'm actually finding myself doing well on a non-ECL adjusted race with negative Strength and Con modifiers and Low AB. That means I have penalties to hit and comparable HP to a Wizard.

There are always the exception like P-builds, very well thought out builds, race selection, Player skill, and IG Experience that make the transition to level a bit easier. It's not impossible, I for one have two epic level PC's with low ab one is drow caster the other a drow rogue. There are also techniques like "muling" items to make the transition easier as I mentioned in another thread. But again, a new player to the PW that wants a "casual" playing experience will find that none existant in the UD without the proper planning.

Overall, the frustration is about 4 times higher (to the casual player) to start and level a ECL race in the UD especially when one of the those races are the PRIME MOTIVATOR of the setting which are drow elves. It's is obvious by how many more "How can I level... (low AB, low HP drow)" type threads compared to that of the surface, where parties are easier to find.

Another issue would be the PLAYER LOCATOR. I do not think it works well with the naming conventions of areas in the UD. If you use the player locator it will just show you the player you are searching for as being in the area called "Underdark" I beleive this was done to prevent metagaming locales of wanted players in the past, but makes finding parties completely inefficient. If this can be solved it would help bring increase the probabilty that a starting player could find a party. As for metagaming.. I think there is an Anonymous option which can remove your toon from the locator list so I don't know exactly why the UD area names were obscurred.

[Molag__Bal]

A lot of the suggestions to improve the UD will take a lot of work to implement. Some suggestions that would perhaps be easier to implement, at least in the short term:

1) Make the beetles weaker, so level 1 characters don't smash their monitors in frustration after eating a critical hit for 11 damage.

2) Change UD quests to reset every 4 days as a temporary solution until more UD quests can be created. Surface quests add up to over 8,000 xp whereas UD quests add up to around 4,200 xp (no one gathers the corpses).

3) Look for some prefab areas that could be added to the UD with minimal effort. In particular, epic areas are lacking. Doesn't need to be too complicated. Look at how heavily used the Amn lizard cave is on the surface.

4) When new items are added to merchants, make them exclusive to the UD (assuming they make sense to be sold in Sshamath). This will encourage surfacers to make trips to Sshamath for trading purposes.

5) Add some scrolls to the UD scroll vendors that cannot be purchased on the surface.

6) Add "boss monsters" to most of the UD areas. A lot of surface areas have a "boss" that tends to give significantly more xp and almost always drops randomly generated item(s). These items often help new characters outfit themselves, or sell for a decent amount of gold. New characters often have a tough time affording equipment.

7) Scheduled DM events? I know that most DM's prefer to find groups and create events spontaneously, but that can be difficult to accomplish in the UD. By planning events on the forums DM's should be able to get enough UD characters. DM Sword tried this a few weeks back and the event was lots of fun.

[Blunkanthrust]

...this is a bit of a copy and paste job from a thread I created recently, with some ideas to improve the UD, sorry if it duplicates already spoke ideas, I'm just offering my two penneth:

Update:

Idea:
The creation of an area, or the addition of a building/outdoor area as part of an existing map, whereby people who have created a new character, may go for training purposes. XP is granted based on how hard a player hits the:

Combat Dummy - Melee Characters.
Archery Target - Thrown/Ranged attacks.
Summoned/Held Goblin - Magic users

Combat Dummy / Archery Target becomes friendly and the PC must re-engage it at 30 second intervals.

Summoned / Held Goblin - Unsummoned and then re-summoned at 30 second intervals.

----- Already we have something quite interesting there to work with ------

Justification:

1. Most races are ECL so the XP sucks halfway through level 1 and its not great at level one unless you're buffed and fighting something your level or just above.

2. You can't wear some armor such as full plate till level 2 so the majority of people playing melee builds are at a disadvantage.

3. The ECL chunk of XP at level one is incredibly off putting on top of the fact that the UD is low pop anyway and harder to level, it feels almost designed to repel new players from the start, I understand that it's meant to be harder down there but it's meant to be fun as well. My level 1 cleric who couldn't afford to buy any useful armor after buying his blank/mundane weapon, was killed on the first hit by a beetle, granted he only had 8 hp but the crit was for 11, which is more than enough to kill most level 1 characters instantly, who don't have backpack of the hearty or a high con.

4. The main reason is that it makes that first transition smoother and really will not give the UD player an advantage over a surfacer as upon reaching that level 2 they would still need to get more XP than a surfacer would need to reach level 3 speaking from an ECL PoV, but even from a non ECL PoV, it would allow for somebody to establish their character quicker.



Idea 2:

The introduction of a multi-stage / chain-quest where the player has to visit and collect things for 10 NPCs or a range of NPCs with the grand total of XP at the end of the quest totaling 1000-1500xp (this quest would be as easy as the Maltz to Beregost and back quest and the Hunter Harrow quest) The purpose of this quest is not, and I repeat NOT easy XP but is designed as a tour of Sshmath so that the new player can orientate themselves with the city, learn some of the lore, find out some info about a few races and their attitudes to the other races, and become immersed in city life.

...if non drow you may be encouraged to learn and type out the words "J A L U K" or "J A L I L" so that the character has then learnt two forms of address for male and female drow in their home city, again another strand of RP immersion.

...if drow you may be prompted to emote pride in your city or something similar.

The quest could be done on behalf of the NPC guards patrolling, (checking on merchants) or it could be trade related "buy potion 'x' from vendor 'y' and take it to person 'z' for healing or some better reason" I personally love the idea that it would involve speaking to the main merchants and stimulates a trade between them and thus putting the player in the mindset that Sshmath is keen to keep trade-routes active.

I'm just throwing some ideas out their, if anything sticks great, if not well we'll keep working on the formula until it does stick, who's with me? !!!

Any staff or player feedback here would be fantastic and openly and actively encouraged!

Pe@ce

[Gruk]

i think its supposed to be difficult , i dont have much Ud lore but from what i've gathered the tunnels are no place for the new adventurers ... i have a Sorceress .. from level 1 to 15 theres no place ( that paid decent XP ) that i could go alone ... so i didnt eh.

on the other hand , party up with only one fighter of same level range and we could go deeper then any of us could alone and made great XP . i get that not evryone has a buddy to play with but sooloing a rogue or a mage is supposed to be tough in D&D , its easier on surface because anyone invites anyone in the lowbies area thats all.

on the note of suggestion speaking to a few buddies we made a litle list ...

- More quest ; isnt fair that surfacers can make a grand tour of the coast for well over 8 k of XP while ECL+ 3 can only make just under 5 k ( counting the necro-corpse quest that low str like me cant do ) its also not real cool that some races can do evry quest up and down while others cant ...

- More bosses / fix Pit fiend ; bosses are a lot of fun , pit fiend is Great , takes a LARGE party to kill and many many high consumables like heals and big scrolls , yet he pays less XP (17 xp lol) then his monk comerade of 1st floor ( 89 xp ), droped a o gp Spoon for all treasure ... making it a poor choice of great party hunt .

- more maps ; evryone like more maps eh ...

-more monsters ; evryone likes more mobs ...

- tweak dridder map ; its a great set of maps , but why most dont go or cant go is beacause its all non rest , theres supposed to be no rest places in D&D fair and square , but , those 2 maps consist of a HUGE maze like gauntlet making it very hard to hunt when your of the challenge rating to be there and after that their not worth the trouble/danger .... ( dridders are much harder then dureguar compound yet pay less )

-DM events ; always great , but i dont think we're lacking in that aspect , just need orginised RP groups and stuff happens often ... but more is always welcomed and appreciated.

im sure theres reasons why some stuff is the way it is tough but its our 2 cents on UD anyway , dont take this as complaints tought , its a GREAT setting we think eh .

[Randall]

- More bosses / fix Pit fiend ; bosses are a lot of fun , pit fiend is Great , takes a LARGE party to kill and many many high consumables like heals and big scrolls , yet he pays less XP (17 xp lol) then his monk comerade of 1st floor ( 89 xp ), droped a o gp Spoon for all treasure ... making it a poor choice of great party hunt .

Pit Fiend isn't that hard to solo if you have the right class. >.> T'was the easiest boss on the surface in the days he was there.

[DM Sword]

The boss was changed a while back tho, it is very tough now.

[Randall]

The boss was changed a while back tho, it is very tough now.

Well, a week before it went to the UD, it wasn't hard at all when you compare it to the white wyrm or even the balor.

[DM Sword]

Yea, in comparison to the white dragon it is but an ant.

[Gruk]

PS
i forgot to mention , renaming maps is a good idea as well , someone else mentioned it and its true even DMs have hard time fiding us ...

[Blackman D]

UD is suppose to be confusing though, if that didnt matter then they wouldnt delete all the cheater maps off the forums people have posted

best thing is usually to know what creature spawns there and hope the DM knows their way around the UD

[Randall]

delete all the cheater maps off the forums people have posted

The map Randy had was all roleplayed, and it took time. I don't see why it should be called "cheater maps". The tunnels do not change, right?

[Eldebryn]

Agreed, renaming the maps is not that important, once you spend some time down there you actually learn locations in the caves either by finding them yourself or from other, more experienced, adventurers.
Still, I would support such a decision, since maps have names in the surface they should have in the UD too. I mean, the 'confusing area' argument doesn't make much sense. To a drow or svirf the sword coast could be more confusing than the tunnels near Sshamath as it looks quite alien to him, don't you think? And since we can't have the map names being shown only to native races adding them for everyone,everywhere is the best thing to do. Not a highly important matter though, there are higher priorities for the UD IMO.

[Gruk]

agreed map names arent that important, and if its part of the setting to be confusing tunnels then leave them as is i retract that suggestion

[Rainbow Prism]

There IS low level boss. Have anyone actually gone to kick kobold high priests's scaly buttocks? I think everyone ignores him. But true, the main problem is that in few questions UD is not equal to surface.

Quests... Give good sensible ideas without too complicated goals. Scripters make it happen. Give too impossible ideas - nothing will be done.

Zones... I have no idea what happens in this question. So far I believe in Mar3us's prophecies and plans.

Bosses... Do you know EXACTLY what boss you want and where? Form a wish and receive. We have a zone with helmed horrors where could be enormous adamantine golem. We have drider caves with possible high priest or supreme leader of driders. We could actually have beholders. We could have something big and scary in Mist Lake.

Give the ideas. Ask. Something. Normally.