The "Epic Store"

[Steve]

The point is that gold may not be as easy to obtain for the average player as it is for M3nt/AC81/Karond or others, but if the average player makes the effort to learn a few things they can still make enough gold for whatever gear it is that they want. They just have to make the effort to focus on learning new ways to get that gold and accept that they are going to take some lumps along the way.

We cannot all be the same Player. It is true, however, that a Player needs to learn how to game the system—to choose crass words—if they shall succeed in the BGTSCC Server economy. An OOC understanding.

But that isn't nice, you see, because not every PC is the Player behind it, and what happens when the Server is turned into a game much more like "Player vs Server Design" than "Player Character role-playing in an fantasy environment?" I hope the distinction, and the concern, is clear.

Give credit where credit is due, to the Players that have figured out how to make the system work for them in uber ways. I do. I have great respect for AC81, Karond, M3nt...which is why I give them such a hard time!

But for me, I never took Role-playing, or even CPRGs, as a experience in which I'm asked to be a highly efficient meta-Player, versus, being a hopeful, dedicated, applying-whatever-skills-I-can-manage to role-play player. I want my RP to count just as much as being capable of earning 10k per day by "running the route." This does not mean others cannot do this—whatever makes you happy—but that shouldn't be the only way. As it appears now, it is the only way. Flasmix brought this up recently himself, in that other thread: DMs are severely limited in rewards they can give out, which, btw, should be for role-play. Go figure!

So let me ask this: how does role-play make it more or less possible to earn coin, get access to the epic shop—or go-betweens—and stay true to the essence of RP (which means, you may be playing a Character that is no merchant, has no appraisal skills, has no lore skills, is less-than-average intelligence, is morally challenged to the interactions, etc.?

In short, there should be no argument against the idea of an Epic Shop as it exists both IC and OOC, if it is possible, to fairly gain access to it without having to become a Player skilled at gaming the game.

[Valefort]

About that thought experiment +3 AC gear is routinely sold on the consignment shop by players, and pretty dirt cheap compared to what it used to be. Between being lucky and amassing some gold to buy that +3 amulet I think you'll have full +3 gear around level 20.

Also always check merchants and what people sold there, I bought back plenty of things from Maltz, like a +3 natural amulet for 10k last week.

[chad878262]

In short, there should be no challenge or place to aruge the idea of an Epic Shop as it exists both IC and OOC, if it is possible, to easily gain access to it without having to become a Player skilled at gaming the game.

I am not really sure what you're saying in your post Steve. Are you saying the epic shop should be easy to get to? Or that it should be easy for players 'not skilled at gaming the game' to be able to earn enough to purchase items?

For the first, it's already been stated that the shop will move down the line and for the second, wouldn't that simply have ever WORSE ramifications for the +3 / middle tier items? After all, it's one thing to spend 30 K on boots because it will be a LONG time before you can afford 500K for the end game boots, but if the end game boots are only, say 100K, why would you spend 30% of that on the mid tier crap?

Apologies if I missed your point, but the way I read this seems contradictory to your earlier post that even at these prices some argue are far too high, that the store has hurt the mid tier economy... making this gear more available would only harm it further.

[Steve]

What I mean is: If DMs are able to give out these Epic Shop items for role-play—which should be equivalent to a Player learning how to "game the system" when considering access to the Items—then there is no real issue, in my opinion.

Otherwise, the only avenues here are a) trade (which often comes from grind looting success), or b) earning coin (which also is generated from grind looting success).

Or am I missing something, another way, in order to get coin? And its not like I can take my diplomatic skilled cleric to Avernus and "apply" his skills in order to get a pity-based reduction of the 400k coin cost.

[AC81]

AC81 wrote:
So ... one question. With the inclusion of this shop (and the docks shop), are heavy RP'ers and casual adventurers more or less likely to attain epic gear than before the shops went in?

Hard to say.

Really? It isn't that hard. How about I phrase it like this. Imagine that the items in the epic store were put up for auction (trade or sale) on the forum before the epic store was around. Imagine the feeding frenzy that gear would've created. Now, imagine again, that you and I both wanted the same piece of gear. Who would've got it? To use Thorsson's terms, the 'haves' would've traded or bought every single item, while the 'have nots' would've missed out yet again. The prices are high (not as high as they were for epic items pre-store days) but they should be - they're epic! They're end game items, destined for level 30 pc's with end game gold amounts. Again, I come back to my point - yes, these items cost. But your chances of getting one is now 100% if you want one. That definitely wasn't the chance prior to the store becoming available.

However, I'm still not exactly sure if the "simple" +3 stuff is even available anywhere. I'm talking about +3 ring, +3 amulet, and +3 boots. If I remember correctly, docks shop had those (at least some of them), BUT they had something extra on them, and ended up costing more.

Maybe it isn't available in a shop, but it is definitely common on the forums and at Mudds. A simple 'seeking' forum thread would have people almost throwing this standard gear at you these days. Again, patience is key ... and you pay less now for these +3 items.

P.S. I still recommend to do that "how does level 1 get +3 equipment for the first time" thought experiment.

Same way you and I did mate. Through patience. Build up a bank of gold (some can do this quicker than others), and then either buy, trade or loot one of them. Could happen quickly, could take a while. My first toon got to level 15 or 16 before he got anything good like a +3 item.

Maybe it is just me, but "EPIC" stuff aside, it really feels like there's a huge hole in gold earning opportunites somewhere in 1..20 level range, and it mostly affect non-magic or low-magic characters.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Non-magic characters excel in low-level content compared to their caster counterparts, especially if we're talking about gold-earning potentials. They need healing potions or heal kits, a weapon, a shield and armour. That's it. They rarely need rest, don't ever run out of spells, so are always at maximum efficiency. When I've last been low-levels (not long ago, on an alt account), and especially since I now know the server, I'm generally always sitting on around 100k gold by the time my guy is ready to progress beyond the gibberling caves/hilltop ruins. For those that don't know the server as well, it can be difficult, but we all had to do it once, so I don't see that as a negative.
If you're talking about the variety of opportunities ... hmm, maybe. What is there? Looting, questing, fishing (then selling fish), trading, crafting (wands, potions). What else should there be? I mean, are people expecting money for nothing?

[chad878262]

What I mean is: If DMs are able to give out these Epic Shop items for role-play—which should be equivalent to a Player learning how to "game the system" when considering access to the Items—then there is no real issue, in my opinion.

Otherwise, the only avenues here are a) trade (which often comes from grind looting success), or b) earning coin (which also is generated from grind looting success).

Or am I missing something, another way, in order to get coin? And its not like I can take my diplomatic skilled cleric to Avernus and "apply" his skills in order to get a pity-based reduction of the 400k coin cost.

You would have to ask the players that spend a great deal of time RP'ing and moving the meta-plot along... I've heard some lament that the item upgrade/request they had was deemed OP by DM team and I have also heard some players ecstatic over their new shiny. I'm not on the DM team so I will take Flasmix at his word, but at the same time my understanding is epic level gear absolutely can be handed out by DM Team for RP, but it requires long term commitment to the meta-plot RP or some other long term plot, not a single 2 hour event where at the end everyone gets an Epic Vilebite. I was involved as I could be in last years meta-plot, while this years I've been much less involved, but my reward last year was being one of the players that had possession of one of the actual books related to the Blight, which was cool enough for me Others I know were allowed to upgrade an existing item or request other rewards, if they were highly involved for the entire course of the year.

So RP can be rewarded with epic items by the DM staff, but only after a long period of consistent RP. However, I've no idea if they restrict this to low epic/mid epic, minor improvements or what have you. It would be a shame if the best 'epic' item you could get was less than what you can loot though (with a lucky drop). I imagine that long term RP, if it can be rewarded with similar power to what is in game now, would be much more rewarding this year than in the past, since the epic shop has increased what is available in the game.

[NegInfinity]

However, I'm still not exactly sure if the "simple" +3 stuff is even available anywhere. I'm talking about +3 ring, +3 amulet, and +3 boots. If I remember correctly, docks shop had those (at least some of them), BUT they had something extra on them, and ended up costing more.

I regularly see +3 deflection items on Mudd's auction for 10-20K, usually closer to 10 these days. I also regularly see dodge boots for 20-30K, usually closer to 20. If anything I'd say, perhaps +3 natural armor amulets are still somewhat rare on auction, but when they're sold they are still in the 25-30K range. In general these items are being sold for about 30% less than what they used to go for.

I meant regular stores, not mudds. Mudds is unrealiable.
Items +3 do not appear on Mudds regularly. It is one maybe two items per month, sometimes they just don't show up. There were two maybe three dodge boots floating around, one of them were mine (and they didn't sell). Amulets are almost never sold.

+3 is not exxaclty "end game", it is more of "the minimum set of equipment you must have".

Should +3 items come easy to a level 1 character? In general between

I meant start as level 1 non-magic or low-magic build and using in-game means only with no grandfathering, get your +3 gear set by whatever level you'll be at that point. Forum is not in-game means.

The point is that gold may not be as easy to obtain for the average player as it is for M3nt/AC81/Karond or others, but if the average player makes the effort to learn a few things they can still make enough gold for whatever gear it is that they want. They just have to make the effort to focus on learning new ways to get that gold and accept that they are going to take some lumps along the way.

My point was that there appear some sort of problem related to earning gold at lower-to-mid levels. That makes getting minimum amount of gear harder than necessary.

In short, there should be no challenge or place to aruge the idea of an Epic Shop as it exists both IC and OOC, if it is possible, to easily gain access to it without having to become a Player skilled at gaming the game.

I am not really sure what you're saying in your post Steve. Are you saying the epic shop should be easy to get to? Or that it should be easy for players 'not skilled at gaming the game' to be able to earn enough to purchase items?

I think he means that RP build should be able to reach epic shop and currently getting there requires a lot of non-RP knowledge. Knowing mechanics, CRs, what monsters drop what items is metagamey OOC knowledge.

It is unfortuante that people can't forget all details about the server when they start a new character. That's why one person says "I never had 100k in my time" and another responds "But I can make 500k in 6 hours so this is not a problem".

[NegInfinity]

How about I phrase it like this. Imagine

It doesn't change a thing. Someone who didn't have 500k won'e be able to afford it either way. That's why it is "hard to say".

I'm generally always sitting on around 100k gold by the time my guy

Look, the reason why you are "sitting on around 100k" is because you know the server and have metagamey knowledge accumulated by previous characters.

Starting the server for the first time and hunting for the gear on bgtscc is frustrating. That's why I said that I think there's a gold earning issue in lower levels.

It is really unfortunate that you can't just forget everything you know about bgtscc and try it fresh.

[Steve]

@ Chad: I think you went a bit off from what I was saying. Not a problem. Let me try to repeat myself and get it back on track:

The actual items at the Epic Shop, being able to be granted by DMs, for role-play.

This isn't about getting already-owned items upgraded by DMs for long term RP in Storylines. That is another can of worms, and if you want to get into it, I'd be happy to discuss it with you (in another thread or via PM).

If, as you say, epic gear can be handed out for long-term commitment RP, then...what is the definition of long-term? Is it equal to the 10k per day grind loot route proposed as the avenue for success, in order to afford gear at the Epic Shop? That would be then between 10 and 40 days of role-play, somewhere between 40 and 160 hours of IG time. Is that a good assessment?

There are so very many players with long-term committed role-play on BGTSCC, I don't even know where to start. How often are they rewarded with a Mithral Breastplate w/ +4 AC? How many Players are even AWARE this is an option, when they're asked if they want any reward for their RP?

Let me be clear: I'm not crying sour grapes or want 2 cookies with my milk, on this issue. I just want to be open about when it is said that "do this and do that" as a means to achieve something, like Epic Gear, is not actually a fair or even reasonable suggestion/answer, for every player.

And, my point is that OOC knowledge of how to best the design/mechanics of this game, is not the best answer against perceived limitations in gains/reward from role-play.

Why does it matter, you may ask? Because BGTSCC is a role-play server. And I want to see it designed in a way that the greatest rewards come from role-play, not learning how to game the design of the mechanics. Yes, rewards come in many different forms, but at this moment, we are discussing Epic Items as a type of pinnacle reward for...grinding? For, role-play? This is yet defined, and where I see the incompleteness.

[chad878262]

But don't you WANT that challenge for new players simply BECAUSE you can't go back and do it again fresh? I'd LOVE if I could experience the server again for the first time!!! However, I think my first experience may be vastly different then you are remembering, which is odd since we appear to have joined in the same year, though you were about 6 months before me. There was definitely a period of time where I was 'gold poor' and I certainly have still never seen a million gold, but I wouldn't say from 1-20 on my first PC that I was somehow unable to compete in PvE with the equipment I had. I have also started non-twinked alts and played them levels 1-10 and never felt I lacked what I needed to take on CR appropriate to the level.

Again, maybe for some it is too difficult, but for others, even new players it's not. Any lowering of the bar to make it easier takes away challenge from the game for anyone that doesn't think it is too difficult so where is the 'happy medium'?

@Steve, fair enough I agree with everything you just said. DM's should be able to hand out the equal to everything that can be obtained from the epic store, even unique items, so long as they are on par to what is available for purchase or can be found in game. I also would say that 40-160 hours spent in game with DM's on various events within the same storyline, writing long elaborate posts on the forums for the enjoyment of all (or at least those like me, that haunt the forums more than they can get in game!) and otherwise put effort in to strong RP and furthering the stories on the server and are inclusive of others in that RP should absolutely deserve such a reward. Again, I am not a DM so that is not my call, but in regards to your specific post, as I said, I agree 100%.

[Valefort]

Why would you need something reliable in the first place ? Certainties kill the fun for some people, see casinos.

That said, no there is no shop selling basic +3 amulets at the moment to my knowledge so if you conveniently remove the in game auction (where there are regularly +3 items, even if you say the contrary) then you have to find that amulet in drops or through RP, which will take some uncertain amount of time (oh no another uncertainty). No matter how hard I try I don't see a problem there.

What is the problem in getting gold at lower-to-mid levels ? The reliable solution is always the same : looting some safe dungeons for your character. And it seems a pretty sane idea IC wise too, why risking your life if you know you can acquire some gold in a moderately risky manner ? +3 gear is by no means hard to get... even if you know nothing about the server, years ago it took me a couple of months and I had an awfully inept melee build.

[NegInfinity]

When I've last been low-levels (not long ago, on an alt account), and especially since I now know the server, I'm generally always sitting on around 100k gold by the time my guy is ready to progress beyond the gibberling caves/hilltop ruins.

So, you're saying that by level 7 you have 100k.... and supposedly starting as blank character with 1k gold and no grandfathered gear?

Not sure how the hell this is even possible, short of getting very lucky.

which is odd since we appear to have joined in the same year, though you were about 6 months before me.

My first char was made in december 2013, it was a dual-wielder fighter dex build, and it took 3 months to get amulet +3 with that character using in-game means. Which required very intensive searching. The amulet didn't appear on mudds even once, as far as I know.

So, based on that, I can say that the first time experience on BG is quite bad. Or was.

[NegInfinity]

What is the problem in getting gold at lower-to-mid levels ?

The problem is that monsters usually don't drop items. At least tfunke partially addressed that, and now there are occasional small drops, but before the situation was quite horrible. Also, if you remember, there were changes to looting mechanics. Previously you could run a dungeon 3 times, maybe getting something nice. Right now you have one shot at it.

[AC81]

When I've last been low-levels (not long ago, on an alt account), and especially since I now know the server, I'm generally always sitting on around 100k gold by the time my guy is ready to progress beyond the gibberling caves/hilltop ruins.

So, you're saying that by level 7 you have 100k.... and supposedly starting as blank character with 1k gold and no grandfathered gear?

Not sure how the hell this is even possible, short of getting very lucky.

No, I'm saying that by about level 5 or 6 I have that amount. A well-built melee toon (see my other point on melee vs. casters at low levels) can easily handle Gibberlings.

[chad878262]

but now there are additional low level dungeons available for looting, so I think the number of chests you can loot has actually increased or at least stayed the same.