Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:43 am**

I'm not sure I understood everything but if you want a high AC blaster there are better options like MaA 3 / PM 3 / ASOC 9 / wiz 15 :

Full plate (8), 3 (DEX),tower shield(4), bone skin I(2), shield block 1(1), gets tumble access.

10 (base) + 3 (tumble) + 4 (dodge) +4 (deflection) + 6 (IMA) +4 (shield) + 5 (shadow shield) + 3 (CE)+ 8 (MFP)+ 3 (DEX) +4 (tower shield) +1 (shield block) +2 (bone skin) = 57 AC

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261315

Going wizard 7/asoc10/PM 10/dragonslayer 3 is feat starved but even better AC wise.

Bladesinger :
10 (base) + 3 (tumble) + 4 (dodge) +4 (deflection) + 6 (IMA) +4 (shield) + 5 (shadow shield)+ 3 (CE) + 6 (mithral scale mail) +4 (DEX)+ 5 (INT to AC) = 54 AC

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261311

With that AB it won't melee efficiently at all.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:02 am**

How about you drop its hitpoints to d6?
- So that it offers the same hitpoint progression as any Eldritch Knight or Paler Master would.

How about you drop its high will saves progression?
- For example Eldritch Knight only has high fortitude progression, so why not drop high will?

How about you drop the possibility a for divine spell casting progression?
- Wizard 3/Cleric 10/Bladesinger 7/Hierophant 10, will have divine caster level of at least 30 - and would be able to throw that 300 damage Harm along with a standard melee attack. (Blast Infidel, Spellpower combined with Practised spell caster feat, Divine Power for BAB, and you would go for a high strength, and use a longsword with IPA turned on.) Dare I say, step aside Frenzied Weapon Masters, Sun elf cleric bladesingers have come to town! Heck, a wild elf Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Bladesigner/Hierophant might work even better.

How about you drop the metamagic feats from the bonus feat?
- "Disarm, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack" - is a fine enough selection as it is. Although, you might consider allowing a bladesinger to use this feat on some other melee orientated feats, some combat style perhaps? You know, to drive this PRC little bit more into the direction of a GISH, rather than just offering more AC.

Valefort wrote:Okay, clear your throats and prepare honey and tea. Also bear in mind that everything is still very much subject to changes.
[table]
[th][/th][th][/th][tr][td]Bladesinger[/td][td]
Bladesinger

Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a
harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle tactics seem beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Bladesingers have a treasured place in elf society, balancing the joys of art and magic with the skill of masterful fighting, and so bladesingers are well-respected by other elves. They usually serve as itinerant guardians and champions of the elf community at large rather than tying themselves to one particular settlement. Multiclass fighter/wizards can become bladesingers most easily, though any elf who can wield a martial weapon and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger.

Bladesinging ranger/wizards or rogue/wizards are not unknown.

Most bladesingers work alone, sufficient unto themselves, but in larger communities they sometimes have the opportunity to fight together in the same combat. Bladesingers are normally trained singly by another bladesinger, and the concept of anything as formalized as a bladesinger school is an absurd notion to them.

Requirements:

Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier)
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Elf
Spellcasting: Able to cast arcane spells of 1st level (Wizard or Sorc only).
Skills: Concentration 4, Perform 3, Tumble 2

Class Features:

- Hit Die: d8
- Base Attack Bonus: High.
- High Saves: Reflex, Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: None
- Armor Proficiencies: Light.
- Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.
- Class Skills: Concentration, Lore: Arcana, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nobility & Royalty, Perform, Spellcraft, Tumble.

Class Abilities:

Level 1: Bladesong Style, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2: Skill focus Lore : Local
Level 3:
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5:
Level 6: Song of Celerity
Level 7:
Level 8: Freezing field
Level 9:
Level 10: Greater Spellsong

- Spellcasting: At every odd level and 10th level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability.

- Bladesong Style: When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to half her class level, up to a maximum of half her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. This bonus will not stack with the AC bonus granted by Invisible Blade or Duelist.

- Skill focus Lore : Local: A bladesinger is immersed in the traditions and the ways of his people as part of his training.

- Song of Celerity (Ex): A bladesinger can imbue his sword with any hostile spell he memorized, only one spell at a time can be imbued within the weapon. It is cast at the target on a successful melee attack.

- Freezing field: A bladesinger of 8th level is taught the spell Freezing field. Created ages ago to freeze the area around dragon wings to block and slow them so that they can't fly away this spell greatly reduces the movement speed of everyone in the area of effect and hampers both their offense and defense.

Specifics : Speed decrease : 80, AC penalty 2, AB penalty -2. Fortitude save for halving the effects (cold immunity cancels the effect completely).
DC is 10 + Bladesinger levels + spellcasting ability modifier.
Duration : 1 round per bladesinger level.

This ability can be used two times per day.

- Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 10th level ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor.

- Bonus Feat: At 4th level, the bladesinger gets a bonus feat. These feats must be drawn from the following list: any metamagic feat, Disarm, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.
[/td][/tr][/table]

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:08 am**

Regarding the 'elf only' issue. This is a PRC that was requested, had a lot of support and was easily balanced. It then got support by someone with the skillset to implement (Valefort). Mystic Theurge had a lot of interest, but balancing it to be useful and not OP is a bit more difficult. Other PRCs have been requested, but didn't have a whole lot of interest from the community. Introducing new PRC's need to have a good combination of interest from the community, balance and then need to have someone who can implement it and wants to work on it. Starting threads like the Half-elf/Half-orc or Orc PRC threads is a good way to see if others within the community are interested in similar races to you. Starting threads about specific PRC's is also a good start, regardless if they are race restricted. If there is a desire for additional PRC's for Arcane Gishes I recommend starting a thread and, if the thread gets legs QC will pick it up and discuss it from a balance perspective. The issue will always remain ensuring we don't make CL30, BAB26 gishes with high AC and high damage output. We do not want to bring additional classes to the highest tier power levels, but if there is interest in a class because it brings a different flavor than there is no problem discussing it. Some classes are difficult to balance, some are difficult to implement and some just don't have enough interest to make it a viable use of the limited resources at our disposal. Generally it seems to require a fairly strong combination of all the factors for something to get in.

With regard to Comments Only's post, Blade Singer doesn't (or shouldn't) allow divine spellcasting progression. It is for Wiz/Sorc only so no Bards and no Divine progression.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:10 am**

Comments Only wrote:How about you drop its hitpoints to d6?
- So that it offers the same hitpoint progression as any Eldritch Knight or Paler Master would.

d8 is what they get in pnp, perhaps we could give them d10 like dragonslayer though. Explain the need for dropping to d6 please.

How about you drop its high will saves progression?
- For example Eldritch Knight only has high fortitude progression, so why not drop high will?

It's pnp saves, why would you drop high will anyway ?

How about you drop the possibility a for divine spell casting progression?
- Wizard 3/Cleric 10/Bladesinger 7/Hierophant 10, will have divine caster level of at least 30 - and would be able to throw that 300 damage Harm along with a standard melee attack. (Blast Infidel, Spellpower combined with Practised spell caster feat, Divine Power for BAB, and you would go for a high strength, and use a longsword with IPA turned on.) Dare I say, step aside Frenzied Weapon Masters, Sun elf cleric bladesingers have come to town! Heck, a wild elf Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Bladesigner/Hierophant might work even better.

Divine spellcasting progression with bladesinger is not possible.

How about you drop the metamagic feats from the bonus feat?
- "Disarm, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack" - is a fine enough selection as it is. Although, you might consider allowing a bladesinger to use this feat on some other melee orientated feats, some combat style perhaps? You know, to drive this PRC little bit more into the direction of a GISH, rather than just offering more AC.

Sure, why not.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:20 am**

You cannot compare BS to EK as it has less spellcasting progression in exchange for the other things it gets. It is more valid to compare what BS has to what DS has, as Valefort said. Really BladeSinger should be compared in building terms to what you get as W10/EK10/DS10 vs. the same build replacing DS with BS. The DragonSlayer build has to take all the auto-still feats, but can use any shield and can be STR based with limited DEX (13 required due to qualifications). In general the DS will have a higher AB with the focus on STR and can grab PA/IPA to help with damage (and/or NH as discussed previously). The BladeSinger build can also go STR based (longsword), but will still need some dex (14 + Cat's Grace and Mithral Chainmail), but could also go DEX 16 (Cat's Grace/Mithral BP) and max INT for higher DCs and get damage through combat insight, trade off being lower AB. The ASOC build is an option, but the AB is going to be very low so it will be reliant on being a blaster and the feat requirements makes grabbing a reserve feat a bit more difficult to pick up. It can be done, but far from ideal. There are definitely better builds for armored blasters, especially since getting Auto-still allows heavy armor for less reliance on DEX (and thus more room for higher INT/STR).

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:40 am**

Valefort wrote:d8 is what they get in pnp, perhaps we could give them d10 like dragonslayer though. Explain the need for dropping to d6 please.

As far as I've understood the class, it is an arcane spell caster for elves. Elves are not exactly known for their endurance. Thus, since we are looking at an elven PRC that provides high BAB progression, additional AC, and arcane spellcasting progression - why not make the hit dice d4? It would be a perfect match for the elven lore fluff, warriors of arcane might with unmatched speed and cunning - who nevertheless are easily squashed if hit by that ogre holding a tree trunk.

Stormsinger has d6, Daggerspell Mage has d6, Eldritch Knight has d6, Pale Master has d6, Harper Agent has d6, thus it just seems fair for the Bladesinger to get d6 as well.

After all, it is a PRC that grants free light armor proficiency, and up to five points of additional AC from your intelligence modifier - allowing you to skip one pre-epic feat on Still Spell, and three epic feats on Automatic: Still Spell I, II, and III.

Where as a Dragonslayer only really grants fear immunity, and extra melee damage against dragons.

So yeah... The difference between d6 and d8 is just 20 hitpoints, but the difference of d6 and d10 is 40 hitpoints. It is still not massive difference, but it is more notable - and allows the Dragonslayer PRC to remain as the 'slightly bulkier' alternative.

So basically, it is HD envy.

It's pnp saves, why would you drop high will anyway ?

With all ten levels of Bladesinger, the difference between high and low will save progression is four points. The other classes any Bladesinger build will have are likely to have high will save progression - so here is a chance to 'balance it' a bit without making the class unplayable.

This Bladesinger PRC just doesn't seem to have any real downside to it. So, toning down the hit dice and saves makes it ever so slightly less ideal without gimping it to unplayability.

Divine spellcasting progression with bladesinger is not possible.

" - Spellcasting: At every odd level and 10th level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability. "

All right, I guess that makes the above description a copy and paste error.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:59 am**

Comments Only wrote:
Valefort wrote:d8 is what they get in pnp, perhaps we could give them d10 like dragonslayer though. Explain the need for dropping to d6 please.
As far as I've understood the class, it is an arcane spell caster for elves. Elves are not exactly known for their endurance. Thus, since we are looking at an elven PRC that provides high BAB progression, additional AC, and arcane spellcasting progression - why not make the hit dice d4? It would be a perfect match for the elven lore fluff, warriors of arcane might with unmatched speed and cunning - who nevertheless are easily squashed if hit by that ogre holding a tree trunk.

Stormsinger has d6, Daggerspell Mage has d6, Eldritch Knight has d6, Pale Master has d6, Harper Agent has d6, thus it just seems fair for the Bladesinger to get d6 as well.

After all, it is a PRC that grants free light armor proficiency, and up to five points of additional AC from your intelligence modifier - allowing you to skip one pre-epic feat on Still Spell, and three epic feats on Automatic: Still Spell I, II, and III.

Where as a Dragonslayer only really grants fear immunity, and extra melee damage against dragons.

So yeah... The difference between d6 and d8 is just 20 hitpoints, but the difference of d6 and d10 is 40 hitpoints. It is still not massive difference, but it is more notable - and allows the Dragonslayer PRC to remain as the 'slightly bulkier' alternative.

So basically, it is HD envy.

It's pnp saves, why would you drop high will anyway ?
With all ten levels of Bladesinger, the difference between high and low will save progression is four points. The other classes any Bladesinger build will have are likely to have high will save progression - so here is a chance to 'balance it' a bit without making the class unplayable.

This Bladesinger PRC just doesn't seem to have any real downside to it. So, toning down the hit dice and saves makes it ever so slightly less ideal without gimping it to unplayability.

Divine spellcasting progression with bladesinger is not possible.
" - Spellcasting: At every odd level and 10th level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Bladesinger, you must decide which class gains the increased casting ability. "

All right, I guess that makes the above description a copy and paste error.

Is there a concern that you base your suggestions on, or this is just how you "interpet" the class description?

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:14 pm**

Elves having a lower constitution is already reflected in the -2 Con they get racially, and need not again in a class. And since bladesinger is elf only it need not double it up.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:24 pm**

mrm3ntalist wrote:Is there a concern that you base your suggestions on, or this is just how you "interpet" the class description?

At the moment there are two other arcane prestige classes that add AC, Frost Mage and Pale Master. Frost Mage's AC does not stack with other sources of natural armor, where as Pale Master's AC does. So let us focus the comparison beweene Pale Master and Bladesinger. One of them makes your character posses rather peculiar interests and traits that are conflict prone with most of the server, where as the other simply requires you to play an elf. Which of these two comes with a greater amount of role-playing freedom?

Earlier, Valefort provided links to two builds. One for Pale Master with AC of 57, and one for Bladesinger with an AC of 54. Neither of these builds can be considered to be melee gishes, and both of them are basically tanky just arcanists. I do not even think that the AC difference between the builds is notable in PvE - but what sticks out - is the Bladesigner build's Improved Quicken Spell, Freezing song ability, and an additional Epic spell feat.

Thus, what are you actually losing by going for a Bladesinger? You can be good or evil, and you can use your abilities without a fear of backlash. The only downside is the need to play an elf, and lets face it, and that doesn't exactly stick out like a sore thumb. Just go to any in game campfire gathering, and around 50% of the characters there tend to be elves.

Thus, is it really unreasoable to have lowered Will Saves and Hit Dice? Low will and d6 instead of high will and d8 or d10? Because honestly, can anyone come up with a mechanical reason not to use Bladesinger for AC? You might point out how Valefort's build has caster level of 29 while the Pale Master has caster level of 30, bu that is because of the Eldritch Knight. A PRC that could be dropped along with Spellcasting Prodigy feat to get additional Wizard Bonus feat on the epic levels. Think about that, a -1 to your spell DCs for a third Epic spell, or something like that. I think almost anyone could frankly live with it. (Or you could just take two additional Great Intelligence feats and spend the Wizard Bonus feat on an Epic spell.)

Frankly, what do you lose by becoming a Bladesinger? It is basically a cake you are allowed to have and eat at the same time. The d6 hitdice and low will save progression would be at least a marginal detriment to it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:57 pm**

lol, seriously ? If you're good sport you'll see that going PM only meant +2 AC in the build I posted, one can just skip that part and still have more AC than the bladesinger build.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:12 pm**

Comments Only wrote:
mrm3ntalist wrote:Is there a concern that you base your suggestions on, or this is just how you "interpet" the class description?
At the moment there are two other arcane prestige classes that add AC, Frost Mage and Pale Master. Frost Mage's AC does not stack with other sources of natural armor, where as Pale Master's AC does. So let us focus the comparison beweene Pale Master and Bladesinger. One of them makes your character posses rather peculiar interests and traits that are conflict prone with most of the server, where as the other simply requires you to play an elf. Which of these two comes with a greater amount of role-playing freedom?

Earlier, Valefort provided links to two builds. One for Pale Master with AC of 57, and one for Bladesinger with an AC of 54. Neither of these builds can be considered to be melee gishes, and both of them are basically tanky just arcanists. I do not even think that the AC difference between the builds is notable in PvE - but what sticks out - is the Bladesigner build's Improved Quicken Spell, Freezing song ability, and an additional Epic spell feat.

Thus, what are you actually losing by going for a Bladesinger? You can be good or evil, and you can use your abilities without a fear of backlash. The only downside is the need to play an elf, and lets face it, and that doesn't exactly stick out like a sore thumb. Just go to any in game campfire gathering, and around 50% of the characters there tend to be elves.

Thus, is it really unreasoable to have lowered Will Saves and Hit Dice? Low will and d6 instead of high will and d8 or d10? Because honestly, can anyone come up with a mechanical reason not to use Bladesinger for AC? You might point out how Valefort's build has caster level of 29 while the Pale Master has caster level of 30, bu that is because of the Eldritch Knight. A PRC that could be dropped along with Spellcasting Prodigy feat to get additional Wizard Bonus feat on the epic levels. Think about that, a -1 to your spell DCs for a third Epic spell, or something like that. I think almost anyone could frankly live with it. (Or you could just take two additional Great Intelligence feats and spend the Wizard Bonus feat on an Epic spell.)

Frankly, what do you lose by becoming a Bladesinger? It is basically a cake you are allowed to have and eat at the same time. The d6 hitdice and low will save progression would be at least a marginal detriment to it.

I still dont see any reasoning.
Comparing PM with Bladesinger will always come short.
PM give AC, Paralysis, stun immunitoes bonus to Fort saves, crit immunitiy and the best summons in game. And all that with no feat requirements

I dont see your reasoning.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:49 pm**

Add it, add it!!!

I want Elven RP and awesome power!!!

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:00 am**

Unprecedented on BGTSCC: A Stat based AC bonus KEPT whilst wearing armour.
Unprecedented on BGTSCC: A wiz/sorc class that can auto cast in armour.

The d8hp on a arcane PrC is also unprecedented, but I'll class that as only half and just say 2.5 times unrepresented actions built within this one PrC. Just for elves.

@ Valefort. I assume you rushed as those examples you posted have plenty of holes.

Valefort wrote: http://nwn2db.com/build/?261315

Going wizard 7/asoc10/PM 10/dragonslayer 3 is feat starved but even better AC wise.

Low bab, low number of attacks, 4 feats (3 epic) to cast in armour. No Dodge feat so only +2ac better than BS build. Possible mutliclass XP penalty.

Bladesinger version: Better at melee (bab + 5 attacks), better at blasting (3 epic feats help), has feat spare (BS level 4) to add ICE, for better AC (58) when needed (epic bosses), can be 2-handed and not lose AC.

Valefort wrote: http://nwn2db.com/build/?261311

With that AB it won't melee efficiently at all.

This directly conflicts with what QC have said about bab in both threads. Although you don't need 20 INT to start with, spend them 6 points on STR if you like. Its a blaster not DC caster.

Re XP penalty, the BS version only has one base class, so all elf sub-races can take it with no XP penalty. Ie. A STR based Wood-elf 2h Sorc version, with just enough CHA to blast with if you truly want to melee. Or just be a blaster that can melee + summon through the low/mid mobs, then blast the bosses. Or just quicken + max blast for PvP.

In fact QC have stated in both threads they don't want to upgrade classes to match the FvS in power. If i created a drow PC (I apologise to my fellow drow who may be drooling at this PrC) with this build I could solo the Pit Fiend, no problem. Its high AC means I would probably only need one casting of Mirror Image.

chad878262 wrote:The issue will always remain ensuring we don't make CL30, BAB26 gishes with high AC and high damage output. We do not want to bring additional classes to the highest tier power levels, but if there is interest in a class because it brings a different flavor than there is no problem discussing it.

But CL29, bab 22 with high AC and high damage output and no questions were raised? Can solo as good as a FvS?

Seriously?

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:02 am**

I got into this thread originally because of the inaccurate lore references and I like to research that stuff. I then started playing an EK and thought yeah, strong defences but wayyy behind my Meleelock, so created the EK thread. That got Autostill spellcraft reduced, but I now suspect that change was only quickly made to lower the comparison with BS.

Then the 'draft' BS PrC was posted and I noticed the patterns that occurred in both threads.

You know I respect the people supporting this, they are good RP'ers that do a lot for the server behind the scenes but I have to call it what it 'appears' to be:

A power PrC suggested by elf players, QC'd by elf players and Dev'd by elf players, for elf players.

PM'd Global Admins / HDM as I need someone else to see to review this independently so they can tell me I'm wrong and it only 'appears' that way.

BigJ

Quoting my earlier post for easy reference, as it tends to get drowned out.

Hidden: show

BigJ wrote:Wow, just wow. The synergy is perfect, so perfect. Now all that talk in this thread and my EK thread make sense, why my suggestion to remove the two useless EK feats and replace them was immediately rebuffed, they are not so useless now and it would have ruined the synergy.

Just for Elves.

First, correction on the AC gain, its 13 ac: INT 5, MFC (chainmail) 6, Tumble (20) 2 = 13. Thats 7 more than a Palemaster build plus the ability to avoid AoO moving around in combat.

Speaking of PM - Sorc 6 / Ek 4 / BS 10 / ASoC 10.

That is where the synergy lies, what this has all been about in both threads. A better blaster than the PM blaster build, and no need for a bone arm. Just for elves.

That extra meta magic feat it gains at 4 (better than a wizard btw) means it only net costs you three feats (Martial prof, Dodge (+1ac) + Wpn focus (+1ab)) As Chad says CE is staple in most builds so no loss having that, EK provides a qualy feat for BS, EK provides a qualy feat for ASoC, that level 4 BS feat provides the other qualy feat. That leaves two feats free before 20, then all those epic feats free to blast with (or go combat insight if you like). Armoured, with 7 more ac than the PM.

Even the 16 (low bab) and 14 (high bab) split is just right, for that 22 bab that was mentioned as being needed for gishes.

But this gish is a blaster (Ie. normal/em/max orbs and igms) for elves.

I love how immediately after the draft was posted the talk was steered towards comparing with armoured casters and to focus on the cool weapon ability. No need, just compare it to the PM blaster (Btw, the wording of that feat says 'Hostile spells' not damage spells, that include dispels/breaches etc?)

PM summons? Meh. Stun/ crit Immune? Stone body covers that when needed (works with still spell). +2 CON? d6 v d8 means that nets you 10hp. So that leaves the 3xday death spell V the 2day slow spell, and the PM gets better fort saves.

In its place we get blaster, just for elves, that has all the tank defences mentioned in both threads, plus an AC in the high fifties. It can melee through the low/mid mobs with or without summon, then blast the high ones / players.

But man, the synergy between combining those classes, I have a hard time believing it was accidental.

But then I'm tired.

BigJ

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:21 am**

BigJ wrote:The d8hp on a arcane PrC is also unprecedented, but I'll class that as only half and just say 2.5 times unrepresented actions built within this one PrC. Just for elves.

Wrong, DragonSlayer gets d10 HP.

BigJ wrote:Valefort wrote:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?261315

Going wizard 7/asoc10/PM 10/dragonslayer 3 is feat starved but even better AC wise.
Low bab, low number of attacks, 4 feats (3 epic) to cast in armour. No Dodge feat so only +2ac better than BS build. Possible mutliclass XP penalty.

Bladesinger version: Better at melee (bab + 5 attacks), better at blasting (3 epic feats help), has feat spare (BS level 4) to add ICE, for better AC (58) when needed (epic bosses), can be 2-handed and not lose AC.

Dodge is required for DragonSlayer, I didn't even look at Valefort's build, but if it doesn't have Dodge it wouldn't be a legal build. Also, possible XP penalty? Wrong again, AS, PM, and DS are all PRC's. Where do you get XP penalty from?

BigJ wrote:Valefort wrote:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?261311

With that AB it won't melee efficiently at all.

This directly conflicts with what QC have said about bab in both threads. Although you don't need 20 INT to start with, spend them 6 points on STR if you like. Its a blaster not DC caster.

Re XP penalty, the BS version only has one base class, so all elf sub-races can take it with no XP penalty. Ie. A STR based Wood-elf 2h Sorc version, with just enough CHA to blast with if you truly want to melee. Or just be a blaster that can melee + summon through the low/mid mobs, then blast the bosses. Or just quicken + max blast for PvP.

In fact QC have stated in both threads they don't want to upgrade classes to match the FvS in power. If i created a drow PC (I apologise to my fellow drow who may be drooling at this PrC) with this build I could solo the Pit Fiend, no problem. Its high AC means I would probably only need one casting of Mirror Image.

The issue with the build is not BAB, it is the fact that it doesn't have any STR or DEX to hit with. Since it is using a Rapier, dropping STR and others to get DEX up and taking Weapon Finesse could help, but there are only so many buffing spells for AB and this one is really low. There is nothing in this PRC from a blaster/gish perspective that can't be done better, other than the on hit effect they can place on the sword, which will have lower DC's since they are not a DC Caster. They can cast in a MBP/Mithral Chainmail, a DragonSlayer/EK build can cast in MFP and a Tower Shield. In addition, the casting from BS is not the same as Auto-still, it's more like bard/warlock armored caster without the ability to take a feat allowing Medium armor instead.

BigJ wrote:chad878262 wrote:
The issue will always remain ensuring we don't make CL30, BAB26 gishes with high AC and high damage output. We do not want to bring additional classes to the highest tier power levels, but if there is interest in a class because it brings a different flavor than there is no problem discussing it.

But CL29, bab 22 with high AC and high damage output and no questions were raised? Can solo as good as a FvS?

Seriously?

I see nothing in your post that backs up the argument that they can 'solo as goo as a FvS. Perhaps you can try again with some better evidence of what allows them to do so? BAB is lower, AB is lower, damage is lower. As has been shown there are ways to get higher AC as a Blaster and with Heavy Armor and a Tower Shield Dragon Slayer will have comparable AC to a BS Gish.

BigJ wrote: That got Autostill spellcraft reduced, but I now suspect that change was only quickly made to lower the comparison with BS.

No good deed goes unpunished... Autostill was reduced because it was a relatively easy change that does not change the power level of the current Auto-Still Gish, but does allow for a bit more quality of life by not requiring the player to wait until level 25 to be able to cast any spells in armor without using higher slots. It is not seen as something that makes the gish more powerful, it just makes them able to get the feats that in some ways define their characters style a little sooner.

BigJ wrote:A power PrC suggested by elf players, QC'd by elf players and Dev'd by elf players, for elf players.

This is a complete and utter crap statement BigJ. My main is a human and of everyone in QC I'm pretty sure there is exactly one player who's main is an elf, maybe one more who's main might be a Drow? Neither of them will be trading their current characters in to play a BladeSinger.

BigJ wrote:PM'd Global Admins / HDM as I need someone else to see to review this independently so they can tell me I'm wrong and it only 'appears' that way.

Congratulations, they have access to QC forums so probably already saw the PRC as it is currently.

Posts like these two are one of the reasons new classes are not released often. No matter what someone is going to spew conspiracy theories about the ideologies of QC, developers, DM's, Admin's, or whoever else they feel has somehow destroyed the integrity of the server in one foul swoop. Before any of this went in we had discussions in QC about various builds, power concerns, etc. and made adjustments accordingly. There were disagreements, but the difference is no one questions that we all want what's best for the server. This thread went on for 8 pages over less than a month before Valefort brought his initial suggestion to QC (and this is not the only BladeSinger thread we've had recently). The thought is it seems a popular PRC that many players would enjoy the RP of so he took an interest in seeing if something balanced could be built. Now we get venomous posts about some mysterious elf agenda driving everything done for the server...nice.

Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

The Bladesinger PRC

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