Deleting practised spellcaster feats ?

[Laenor]

Problem is, in the long run, this is not a penality.
And this penality comes with about +6 BAB and +~24 hp over a mage, so it's more like a trade.

But I don't really want this to happen, i'm just tossing ideas. Maybe some other suggestion will be made.

At the moment, everyone takes practised spellcaster. And the rule of "Only if you have at least 1 spellcasting level to recover" doesn't make sense.
It's kinda like saying : it's alright to cheat if you can get a good enough excuse.

So either get rid of Practised Spellcaster, or let it be used regardless of the amount of CL you need to recover. It's one on the only way for a "pure" caster to prevent dispelling and increase DC when compared to other gishes that dip a little bit here and there.

[dzidek1983]

or let it be used regardless of the amount of CL you need to recover

it works like this right now... you can't take it only if you have 30CL
people with 29 CL can take it
so a wizard27/palemaster3 can take it and have 33 CL
thats the bonus that "almost pure caster" gets for his trouble and he is then harder to dispell as you mentioned

[Laenor]

Well I will be taking the feat even with full CL classes.
It's bull**** because
Wizard 20 / EK 10 = CL 29 [+3 epic bonus to saves]
Wizard 20 / ASoC = CL 30 [+3 epic bonus to saves]

The first has the "official" rights to get practised spellcaster for 4 bonus to DC where the other doesn't.

Edit.: And an "Almost pure caster" doesn't have trouble, and should not get rewarded more
A Wiz 10 / EK 10 / ASoC 10 probably has less trouble levelling than a Wiz 20 / ASoC 10.
Here's 1 level behind in spells up to level 21, but he's got 5 more BAB and 20 more HPs.

[dzidek1983]

well it's not always as you say...
you get 3 CL more thats right with a wiz/ek
but count what you get with wiz/asoc
or how many more feats does a pure wizard get....

a wiz/asoc gets great free feats better spell distribution with those feats and improved quicken is an epic thing to have

a pure wizard.. som amny more epic feats.. can get +8 to INT form those feats
just count how many more a pure wizard has over wiz/ek that has to invest in more stats

what does that +1DC give for the EK? nothing with his 20'ish int score compared to a wizards over 30 score...

so yes a EK gains 3 CL to defend himself from mords disjunction and thats it...

[Laenor]

well it's not always as you say...
you get 3 CL more thats right with a wiz/ek
but count what you get with wiz/asoc
or how many more feats does a pure wizard get....

a wiz/asoc gets great free feats better spell distribution with those feats and improved quicken is an epic thing to have

a pure wizard.. som amny more epic feats.. can get +8 to INT form those feats
just count how many more a pure wizard has over wiz/ek that has to invest in more stats

what does that +1DC give for the EK? nothing with his 20'ish int score compared to a wizards over 30 score...

so yes a EK gains 3 CL to defend himself from mords disjunction and thats it...

- Improved Quicken sucks.
- A Wiz 20 / ASoC 10 gains a total of 2 feats over a Wiz 10 / EK 10 / ASoC 10, at the cost of 5 BAB / 20 hp / Fort saves

And, no, your EK doesn't have to invest in more stats. You invest in more stats,

I'm just pointing out a rule that is stupid. I can have the same result by using wiz 16 / PaleMaster 4 / ASoC 10 that gets to have +1 DC over a WiZ 20 / ASoC 10, while also having +4 natural AC.

[dzidek1983]

- Improved Quicken sucks.

i would not say so... especially coupled with defensive spells
but as you wish...

A Wiz 20 / ASoC 10 gains a total of 2 feats over a Wiz 10 / EK 10 / ASoC 10, at the cost of 5 BAB / 20 hp / Fort saves

no it does not.. you get free maximise free quicken so you dont have to spend feats for it...
BAB is worthless for a pure wizard... 20HP is nothing at later levels and fort saves = shadow shield...

I'm just pointing out a rule that is stupid.

it is.. as many other rules on the server.. just live with it...

I can have the same result by using wiz 16 / PaleMaster 4 / ASoC 10 that gets to have +1 DC over a WiZ 20 / ASoC 10, while also having +4 natural AC.

yes you get +1DC for having to play a non-good character and RP wise you can get killed for necromancy
the natural AC is nice i admit as it stacks

but still i would choose wiz20/asoc10 any day for more feats in the epic levels

any decent mage does not use DC spells here for damage.... well maybe except disintegration

[Laenor]

Improved Quicken is useless unless you're playing a Sorcerer.

I don't think anyone will memorize a Quickened invisibility as a level 5 spell when a potion would do exactly the same.
Quickened spells take 3 seconds to cast instead of 6 seconds. That's all they have for them. This is nothing like PnP.

Quickened spells are useful only in PvP where you can cast 2 spells in one round, preventing someone winning just by spamming spell mantles.

any decent mage does not use DC spells here for damage.... well maybe except disintegration

All AoE spells, that are the best damaging spells one can use have a DC.
All "good" single target spells have a DC. The only single target spells that are used and do not have a DC are level 1-4 spells that are empowered / extended up to level 6.

Regardless, saying "EK should have the right to pick a feat to get +1 DC over pure mages" is absolutely illogical, and you know it.

[mute83]

If you chose to multiclass, you should lose something else. Currently i dont see really losing anything by going EK and picking up that feat. EK and that feat is some of the things that makes it very hard to balance things. But it is proberly way to late to make the change now

[oyclo]

I'm curious what builds would become "utter crap" ?

Everyone that was made to deal with the current system in place instead of a future one

If you are calling someone who didn't take spell casting prodigy and 2 int points as horribly handicapped as a caster in another thead, what do you think losing 4 CL will do?

[dzidek1983]

I don't think anyone will memorize a Quickened invisibility as a level 5 spell when a potion would do exactly the same.... Quickened spells take 3 seconds to cast instead of 6 seconds......

i use quicken for mantles and dispells and bigby..... in various combinations depending on the target
just guess why...

All AoE spells, that are the best damaging spells one can use have a DC.

they are worse... you cant use them in a group and they need a silly grinding-running game as there are never to many enemies close to use them

The only single target spells that are used and do not have a DC are level 1-4 spells that are empowered / extended up to level 6.

wrong again. the best are Avasculate followed by IGMS.... first reduces target by 50% HP the second does 120 Dmg maximised, both without a save...
there are also the orb spells that do 90 maximised without a save

low levels have the best defensive spells

Regardless, saying "EK should have the right to pick a feat to get +1 DC over pure mages" is absolutely illogical, and you know it.

never said that... i just said thay can do it and its legal and they loose something to gain that +1DC

But it is proberly way to late to make the change now

exactly

[mute83]

without these 2 things, they could proberly change dispell back, reduce the saves on mobs, and such. So the "blaster" can feel more like a blaster, because he will be better at it, then one that multiclassed to become something else

[Laenor]

Maximized IGMS is a level 9 spell unless you're an ASoC.
At level 9, I can AoE things to death, I can charm creatures for 20 minutes, I can summon huge badass creatures that will deal more than 120 damage, and so on.
Maximized IGMS is great in PvP but as damage goes, a single Horrid W. Deals 50d6 if you use it against two creatures. Thats. 25d6 or an average of 75 damage if they make the save, 150 else. Gets up to 112/225'damage vs 3 creatures.
If you're not soloing, you're better off using ehancements on your party members anyway, and keep bigg spells for the bad guys.

[dzidek1983]

Avasculate can do 99999999999999999999999999999999 damage...
only the creature has to have 2x more HP
and it has no save

I can charm creatures for 20 minutes

great charmed creature does nothing... you still have to attack him to kill it and it cant attack other creatures.. i think you meant dominate
but still not worth a lvl 9 spell slot for something so random in use

a single Horrid W. Deals 50d6 if you use it against two creatures. Thats. 25d6 or an average of 75 damage if they make the save, 150 else. Gets up to 112/225'damage vs 3 creatures.

good point.. 3 creatures... try grouping 3 creatures in a dungeon with f.ex. epic traps... or casters that mord you on sight... its not Cloakwood all the way on this server....

I can summon huge badass creatures that will deal more than 120 damage

another good one... banish form a decent wizard and it is gone... not to mention that divine spell... holy word or something.. no save bye bye summons

[muffinFBSL]

I don't like the feat at all.

And though I agree with dzidek's point of view a little, nothing stopped he Druid/Monk nerf or the Stormlord Nerf. Were there not plenty of players using those?

Just throwing that out there.

[Hydrocarbonated]

The druid/monk "nerf" was a necessary precursor to improving the wildshapes. They've got AC that is competitive with a previous Monk/Druid build, but it was impossible to argue for constructive changes like that if some people were going to have 16 more AC than others.

Stormlords were so overpopulated at one point it was far beyond amusing. Literally every other person on the Trade Way was a Stormlord dual-wielding spears and trying to explain that they were a follower of <Insert Deity Who Is Not Talos>. When I say it was ruining the game for a lot of players, you'll have to take my word for it... most of the hate-threads are back on the old forums.

Practiced Spellcaster has long been on a list of feats that cause balance issues, but we really try to avoid nerfing something if the issue can be addressed as a matter of policy or monster design. I'm not sure if Practiced Spellcaster can be, but you can ask again in six months or so and we'll revisit the issue.

Speaking personally, rather than in my capacity as a staff member? Yes, Practiced Spellcaster was and remains a terrible idea, because it allows people to not just erase the downsides of multiclassing but to actually profit by it due to a fundamental error in Obsidian's handling of it. That is pretty much unmitigated bad.