Clarification of 3b20 rule

[Deathgrowl]

To respond to Deathgrowl: one issue is Shadowdancer. Many dip builds into Shadowdancer could delay the last two levels for 29 and 30.

Yes, I understand that, but upon reaching 30, they are no more powerful than if they didn't delay those levels. It would just make the level progression a bit easier. The builds themselves wouldn't be more powerful. Right? Or am I missing something?

[Baboonicorn]

3b30 may grant a potential power increase to those dipping into classes who get bonus feats on level up e.g fighter, divine champion. If the player can choose to delay their bonus feat levels until they meet the prereq for a more powerful epic feat, they can hypothetically squeeze more power out of their build than they could if all three of those levels had to be taken before 20th and their bonus feat is used for an additional non epic feat.

It's a pretty situational example, though.

[Boletus]

And all Oddvar wanted was a little acidy panache when surrounded by nasty trolls ... Don't let this discussion get out of hand. Rules is rules and if they work, that's good enough for me. I misinterpreted them because I never imagined that taking one level at 21 would upset the server power balance. It actually never even crossed my mind that it would be a problem, showing of course how little I care about power-building. So for those thinking I had sly intentions, pretending to not understand the meaning of the rule, they are wrong. So, move along now people!

[Bobthehero]

Fighter / Whirling Dervish / Weapon Master / FB

I wouldn't put that in the same list as anything that can shoot out spells.

Granted my own build has dragon warrior instead of the Dervish and no UMD, but when I get told that a Flavored Soul can hit 71 AC while I struggle at 38, something's not all there.

[Considerate_]

Deathgrowl wasn't asking to compare builds, but listed a set of standard/well-known powerbuilds and asked how the rule of 3b20 affected it

[Thorsson]

The SD example was the clearest one of why 3b30 is different to 3b20 - you could take 1 level at 8 for HiPS, and possibly leave the others until much later (although you might want the second for evasion if it wasn't coming from elsewhere), which would make the build more powerful while levelling.

Whether that's such a big deal, is arguable however. As I've said before, there will always be builds that are more inherently powerful; all the rules (and other aspects of the PW*) do is change which some of them are. Every time there's an addition to classes, feats, etc. that also happens. It's a general testament to the team that none of these yet have seen the server overrun by one of the new classes, although I do fear an invasion of gun-wielding Gnomes.

* For instance here UMD is much more useful than on many other servers, partly due to the low magic level of items and partly to the ready availability of scrolls and transferability of wands.

[Considerate_]

Yeah, I agree there's Shadow Dancer is one of the clearest examples.

There's also dipping into cleric to gain Turn Undead for EDM builds and domain bonuses as an added bonus. Such as Luck of Heroes (from the Luck Domain), Toughness (from the Earth Domain) and so forth.

Just as you could take one level of rogue/bard at level one, to gain access to a wider selections of feats, and wait till much later to pick up the second and third level.

And it also works the other way around by waiting with picking Divine Champion till after level 20, so you can get all the epic bonus feats there.


That's just the ones I can think off, of the top of my head, there's probably other variations out there.

I think the current rule with 3b20 works quite well in, if not eliminating powerbuilds then at least frustrating them a bit, and I'm not sure there's a reason to change it

[Thorsson]

I think the current rule with 3b20 works quite well in, if not eliminating powerbuilds then at least frustrating them a bit, and I'm not sure there's a reason to change it

That's the best reason to leave well alone. But then that's the best reason not to make other changes as well; and we make those...

[Styxwash]

To be perfectly honest, years back there WAS a possibility to apply for a rule exception. However, it was only really used to enable the Friends of Former DMs have stronger builds than everyone else. And it really was a welcomed change, when the staff got rid of that awful exception that can only be summed up as "Open Can of Worms."

Aww, don't be like that, I got one of those exceptions once and i'm certainly neither a former DM or tight with any of the staff.

I'm sure these exceptions were given in the cases where it wasn't for powerbuilding, no matter who the recipient was, as long as they weren't known for cheating or exploiting.

In my exception I got a far weaker character before lvl20 then I otherwise could have and i'm not known for cheating and exploiting, so it seems the system worked well enough =)

(I don't mind the exception rule was removed though, this way there's less conflict and accusations like these made by Sim )

[Thorsson]

Would you not agree though, that there are plenty of other people, who were not known for cheating or exploiting, who did not get made an exception for?

[Xanfyrst]

Styx, DM teams of old times were corrupt to the bone.

[Broham2]

Not all previous DM teams had issues. I can say that with 100% confidence.

I looked back at the PMs asking for exceptions and you know how many were allowed while I was a DM? None. At least none that I can recall or have record of, anyway. It may have been "allowed' by the letter of the rule, but there were none granted while I was on board.

The 3 by 20 rule was established to prevent or at least minimize powerbuilding and it does what it sets out to do... evidenced by the powerbuilds that applied for exceptions while I was a DM.

Whatever issues you have with DMs of the past, let them go. They are probably grossly exaggerated anyway.

[AC81]

3b30 would allow people to avoid xp penalties with more ease too. The system is fine how it is, I don't see why anyone would need to apply for exceptions, the 3b20 rule is fair and is well-known. There's no need for players to build outside these limitations.

[Styxwash]

Styx, DM teams of old times were corrupt to the bone.

Well I naturally can't speak for the time before I joined up, and my case of exception was only within like half a year or so before the exception rule was removed, but ya, seemed to work just fine in my case