Clarification of 3b20 rule

[Boletus]

Perhaps a little clarification of the rules wouldn't hurt for us nitwits. I interpreted the 3b20 rule as 3 levels in every class at level 20 – but after that, being an Epic character from level 20, I could start to build new sides of my character. And since it's hard to earn 3 levels in one go, I started with 1 level Elemental archer at level 21.

All the examples below are for a 20 level character. I may be incredible thick not grasping the spirit of the law, or there may be others that could misinterpret the rules, run into a zelous DM and handed a jolly good XP-loss spanking. Just a suggestion.

RULE WORDING
– 3 Levels of Each Class at Level 20 (3b20) Rule: A PC (the build plan) must have 3 levels in every class at level 20 (example of a build's class level distribution at the 20th character level: 17/3 or 14/3/3/ or 11/3/3/3). Prestige classes are included in this rule. So for example, a Rogue 12/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 3 is okay. A Rogue 13/Wizard 5/ Arcane Trickster 2 is not. Failure to observe this rule will result in the de-leveling of your PC to a legal state with NO XP refund!: A PC (the build plan) must have 3 levels in every class at level 20 (example of a build's class level distribution at the 20th character level: 17/3 or 14/3/3/ or 11/3/3/3). Prestige classes are included in this rule. So for example, a Rogue 12/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 3 is okay. A Rogue 13/Wizard 5/ Arcane Trickster 2 is not. Failure to observe this rule will result in the de-leveling of your PC to a legal state with NO XP refund!

[Hoihe]

You cannot take new classes post level 20, since you MUST have 3 levels in EVERY CLASS of your character by level 20.

You CAN take the 3th level on level 20, but not on 21. And no new classes past 20 either.

[Alezka Silverstone]

the wording is fine. You replaced 3 levels in everyclass by 20 to 3 levels in every at 20....

few things like this , small grammatical changes, change the context, and possibly the meaning. If you don't get the concept, that you need to have 3 levels in every class BY level 20, then its English that you don't get.

[roke42]

Perhaps it should be added that according to this rule, you are not allowed to take new classes after you hit 20 as an example. It is already in it, but it might not be that clear for everyone.

[Boletus]

Perhaps it should be added that according to this rule, you are not allowed to take new classes after you hit 20 as an example. It is already in it, but it might not be that clear for everyone.

Exactly. If it is implicit that you can't take new classes ever after level 20, why don't explicitly put that in the rule? It's not that hard.

"When your character reaches level 20, you must have at least 3 levels in all your classes. After level 20 you can't take any new classes ever again."

Is the English good enough for you, Alezka?

As I wrote, I kinda hoped that after level 20, having reached epic level, you could develop your character laterally not just adding to your existing classes. Perhaps a rule addition: "when you reach level 21 you can opt to take 1 new class. At level 30 the same rule applies as for level 20 – you must have at least 3 levels in each class at level 30.

[Valefort]

That would be a major change Boletus, I doubt it will happen.

[Boletus]

That would be a major change Boletus, I doubt it will happen.

So do I! But suggestions are a part of this forum, right? Can't hurt to make a wish.

[Simian]

That would be a major change Boletus, I doubt it will happen.

So do I! But suggestions are a part of this forum, right? Can't hurt to make a wish.

But it would be a very big change, and it would make powerbuilding far easier. For example, it would let you delay the PRC requirements, it would let you gain more feats during the epic levels, and it would make certain impossible combinations possible.

To be perfectly honest, years back there WAS a possibility to apply for a rule exception. However, it was only really used to enable the Friends of Former DMs have stronger builds than everyone else. And it really was a welcomed change, when the staff got rid of that awful exception that can only be summed up as "Open Can of Worms."

Therefore, the suggestion is very unlikely to pass due to the nature of the rule itself, which is to curb the worst powerbuilds, and because people have learned from the past. Now, if you can show that the rule change would not make powerbuilding easier than it is, and that there would be no DM-favoritism involved, then you might have a very valid argument to have the rules changed.

(But I already got a list over-powered builds ready to be posted. So it is up to you whether you want to fight windmills.)

[Boletus]

Ah, well. I wasn't aware of all the severe implications and cans of worms for wanting to take a brand new class over level 20. Nevermind that then. I don't powerbuild, not that I am aware of, so I never imagined the effects would be so great; that a simple change of rules would have enormous repercussions on the power balance of the server. And of course, I don't want that.

End of story.

[NeOmega]

The rules don't care if you are power building or not. Which is unfortunate. And favored classes for races, mixed with multi-classing penalties, actually encourages power building.

I don't see the big deal about power building, honestly.

[Baboonicorn]

The problem with power building in an RP world is that in order to prevent the power builds from dominating the world (in this case, indirectly by grinding xp, gold and items at very little risk to themselves), the challenge level of the world needs to be raised to present a risk to the power builds.

In the absence of scripted tests for instant death to people with dump stats or neglected social skills, which would be just as immersion-breaking, the only option is to make the spawns and dungeons more challenging.

Which, as Passi can attest, means that an RP character with flaws and weaknesses can find life difficult. In addition, this inevitably leads to powerbuild inflation, in that more and more powerful builds are created in order to dominate the server anyway.

[Hitman Hard]

I think the term power building is over rated, all it really means is you have a strong build. And power building isn't a one trick wonder, I have a high STR character that could be called a "power builder" but he certainly struggles in the grind. You always pay a price when you dump stat and focus on one ability.

[Simian]

Mechanical power unfortunately tends to come before the role-playing or in character sensibilities. Such has been the general tendency with both NWN1 and NWN2. And hey, it is fun to come up with a concept and then try to make it as strong as it gets. But there are things that are just way out there when it comes to power, or just too silly. :/



But I am afraid that it is very hard to draw a line to where one is power building or not. So, the rule is as good compromise as we are able to get. At least, no other serves has come up with a better rule.

[Deathgrowl]

Personally, I don't think there's much difference between 3b20 and 3b30 in terms of power. It would open for a few more interesting builds, though (since it means you could pick a new class after the feat on level 18, for instance...)

So here's the challenge: Can you build something with 3b30 rules that is stronger than any of these in 3b20 rules:
Dragon druid
Favoured Soul / Paladin or Favoured Soul / Blackguard
Fighter / Whirling Dervish / Weapon Master / FB
Wizard / ASoC / Palemaster / Shadowdancer
Wizard / ASoC / Blood Mage / Archmage
Wizard / Assassin / Arcane Trickster / Eldrich Knight
Sorcerer or wizard / fighter / eldrich knight (Or other powerful gishes)
Pure Bard
Rogue / Assassin / Invisible Blade

I mean, where's the powerbuild rule? All these can be easily done within 3b20. 3b30 would simply open more possibilities for level progression and perhaps more flavoured builds, but certainly nothing stronger than all these.

[DM Novus]

3 Levels of Each Class at Level 20 (3b20) Rule: A PC (the build plan) must have 3 levels in every class at level 20

If a Player must have 3 levels "in every class at level 20," how does it NOT make sense that if you have 1 level in a new class at level 21, you are breaking the Rule?

It seems to me the personal desire to wish for something overshadowed the clear nature of the Rules.

To respond to Deathgrowl: one issue is Shadowdancer. Many dip builds into Shadowdancer could delay the last two levels for 29 and 30.

The 3b20 Rule has worked well for a while now. It does not need to be changed.