Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I have to disagree Thids.

While some do take Listen, Spot cannot be discounted as it detects traps, stealthers, pickpocketers, tiny objects on people's person to look at and now disguise.

That is some serious pull with just one skill.

Isn't the Search skill for traps?

Search skill is for looking for traps, yes. I don't think Spot has anything to do with finding traps.

Well I don't have any data or anything, I'm just saying that in general I feel like people pick listen over spot more often if they have to choose. I realize that spot has both more mechanical applications and it's more valuable skill in roleplay simply because it's applicable in situations which occur more often, but I think people simply value detecting sneaks more.

Ok ok I am human, I made an error with discovering traps... but spot prevents Feints

TarnishedSoul wrote:Am I the only person who feels this way, or is my sentiment shared? If the latter, then please comment, because I am concerned that Appraise Creature in its current state will cause nothing but problems.

Speaking as a player whose character often dons entirely black attire, complete with a hood and mask, not to mention whose livelihood depends on the ability to remain anonymous, I tend to share your concern with the new Appraise feature.

In it's current incarnation, this feature, more or less, appears to completely disregard a characters in game appearance and provides the "appraiser" with meta-information about the target with the simple click of a button. And it does it with no role-play required. As it stands, and considering that almost no characters will have yet invested in the Disguise skill, as opposed to the vast amount of those invested in Spot, the appraise feature is heavily biased in the sense that it puts the emphasis on lop sided mechanics, and ignores the work a player puts into concealing their heritage through role-play/biographies. And roke42 hit this nail on the head:

roke42 wrote:I think disguise and seeing though disguises needs to need additional rulings. I would think it is almost impossible to distingish if there is a human, elf, aasimar, half-elf, tiefling and whatnot inside this bulky fully covered armor with helmet standing over there, regardless any skill bonuses.

As a minor aside, this feature also seems to provide the character being appraised with an indication of such, and then the combat log proceeds to, in parenthesis, attempt to dissuade us from acting on the meta-information of being appraised while offering us meta-information by informing us of the appraisers spot roll. Hmm.

While I have yet to experience the in-game ramifications of being appraised while in my "work clothes", I have a sinking feeling that this feature might be a headache to contend with.

Hawke wrote:I am looking forward to this mechanic, but it's success and failure will rest firmly on the shoulders of the player base.

A sentiment I tend to agree with.

Thids is right with people picking Listen more. It's easier to get ridiculous levels with. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience + Amplify for instant +30. Okay, cool beans.

I appreciate the honest feedback and discussion about the Appraise & Disguise feature. The Detection DC & check calculation is a placeholder prototype to be developed through playtesting in the live environment.

The coming update focusses on getting the necessary infrastructure in place. The DM team will come up with a number of rulings and wishes based on how it works in practice. Which is more practical than trying to come up with something that might not work as well as we would like.

Rasael wrote:I appreciate the honest feedback and discussion about the Appraise & Disguise feature. The Detection DC & check calculation is a placeholder prototype to be developed through playtesting in the live environment.

Realisticaly speaking, there is no way to find a balanced formula. It is the same thing between a sneak and a detector. Dedicated spoters would always be able to detect/pass the disguise check mainly because of the wider availability of +4detection items and the enormous bonus ( when compared to the low magic world BG is ) on spot from spells such as CC.

I am very interested to read the opinion's in this matter.

As with any new system, I am inclined towards numerical stability rather than trying to use these mechanics to balance the playerbase tendency to counter an overpowered stealth mechanic. Take the Spot/Listen thing entirely out of it - a disguise could be either or both.

My suggestion would be the following, DnD 5ish system. Disguise would be based on charisma with the standard roll (I'd prefer a d10, but that's my preference), opposed by wisdom (the tendency to spot something 'wrong'). Simplify the matter on a feat basis - have Disguise Mastery (+6 proficiency bonus in disguise) opposed by a similar check, Keen Eye (+6 proficiency in spotting disguise).

If I had my way this would be a prototype of shifting ALL skills to a DnD 5 system, but it won't be. I merely suggest it as an alternative approach to this

I also recommend taking the system entirely out of the hands of players in that sense and removing appraise player completely. I think most players (I speak for myself as well) can be trusted to not immediately start metagaming around each other and breaking disguise and this will only matter in cases of guild infiltration or DM events.

Thus it should be treated like any other roll.

Though this goes against 3.5 Disguise Skill rules, since Disguise Skill is being added NOW and that challenges many lvl 30 built PCs currently active for many years...would it not be simplest to have Disguise vs. Disguise skill ranks, with as Mopknight suggests, Cha for hidden modifier and Wis for "spot" modifier?

While it is crude, this way it pushes dedicated disguisers and dedicated revealers to either RCR into these roles or "deal" with whatever Ability bonuses and gear bonuses that are IG?

Otherwise, there will have to be some Skill Synergy allowed, like +1 Disguise for every 5 Bluff points, as well, a whole range of new Gear sold by NPC merchants to raise Disguise sky high.

I am inclined to slowly drift away from DnD 3.5 rules where possible, admittedly, simply because I find item and spell inflation to be an utterly intolerable way of doing roleplay.

However, that is my preference rather than anything concrete.

I agree on the idea of either being perform or disguise (or bluff) whichever is higher. As some people have stated, this is problematic for existing characters that have been relying on perform/bluff until now.

Azure wrote: As a minor aside, this feature also seems to provide the character being appraised with an indication of such, and then the combat log proceeds to, in parenthesis, attempt to dissuade us from acting on the meta-information of being appraised while offering us meta-information by informing us of the appraisers spot roll. Hmm.

While I have yet to experience the in-game ramifications of being appraised while in my "work clothes", I have a sinking feeling that this feature might be a headache to contend with.

If I'm an assassin, on a job, and I catch someone appraising me, realistically I might be concerned about them blowing my cover.
I would think the in-game ramifications might include the stabbing and disposal of said appraiser to prevent interference in my work.
Some people might consider a close appraisal to be a hostile action, depending on how intent you are on not being recognized.

Isn't disguising yourself as an Aasimar or Tiefling difficult in lore?

Like:

Tieflings tended to have an unsettling air about them, and most people were uncomfortable around them, whether they were aware of the tiefling's unsavory ancestry or not. While some looked like normal humans, most retained physical characteristics derived from their ancestor, with the most common such features being horns, non-prehensile tails, and pointed teeth.

Nearly all aasimar were uncommonly beautiful and still, and they were often significantly taller than humans as well.

While several aasimar were immediately identifiable as such, others were even less distinguishable than tieflings from their human ancestors, commonly standing out with only one unusual feature. Most aasimar had pupil-less pale white, gray, or golden eyes