What is Appraise Creature meant to do?

[TarnishedSoul]

I want to preface this post by saying that I understand that this update has had some issues, and that those issues are getting tested and fixed for our collective enjoyment. The hard work that has gone into providing new things is appreciated.

That said, I must reiterate my initial question: what is Appraise Creature meant to do? Because right now, all it's doing is providing a very OOC way to determine what race is a PC regardless of what that PC has done to shield the knowledge. I realize that certain head models are only used by particular races, but tieflings can cover their horns with a hood and 'pass' as human RP-wise. Not all aasimar have glowing eyes and iridescent skin; they can 'pass' as human, too. Elves and half-elves can keep their ears covered; et cetera and so forth.

But now, all someone needs to do is right-click Appraise Creature, and the race is automatically known. It completely strips a PC who wants / wanted to keep his or her heritage concealed and introduces an OOC element. I received no less than a half-dozen similar /tells after the update regarding my own PC, who purposely wears a hood and has been referred to as just about every race. It is something that has formed her character identity, prompted some interesting RP, and caused others to try and 'solve the mystery' IC. Imagine my disappointment when I got, "Ahhh, so she's a [race!] Finally, I know! XD"

Is it meant to do something else? Is there a way to disable its use if not disguised? Am I the only person who feels this way, or is my sentiment shared? If the latter, then please comment, because I am concerned that Appraise Creature in its current state will cause nothing but problems.

[Rhifox]

I believe the intent now is that you have to put points into Disguise Self, and actively disguise yourself statwise as much as graphically if you want to appear as a difference race. Instead of just relying on the game's graphics. The Disguise toggle lets you attempt to appear as another race.

[Hoihe]

It has an use in Detect Magic, to see if the area is teleport warded. I don't know about other things.

[thids]

While I can see the logic in requiring disguise skill to hide ones heritage (perhaps with a circumstantial bonus to their skill for that specific action, depending on how similar to humans they are), I agree that this has potentially ruined some RP of existing characters. Disguise skill or system was not in the game before this was all introduced and DM's used perform or bluff in their events for disguise up until now... It's not fair towards people who have put an effort into their roleplay to disguise their character's heritage to have people all of a sudden just right click them and find out their race.


Another thing that bothers me about this feature and disguise in general is, when I appraise someone who is disguised and I beat their disguise roll with my spot roll, all I get is the information that they are disguised (unless I know them from before? not sure how this mechanic works exactly)... that's not enough information IMO. How am I supposed to translate that into roleplay if people aren't obliged to describe what exactly is disguised? Am I missing something?

[DM Golem]

While I can see the logic in requiring disguise skill to hide ones heritage (perhaps with a circumstantial bonus to their skill for that specific action, depending on how similar to humans they are), I agree that this has potentially ruined some RP of existing characters. Disguise skill or system was not in the game before this was all introduced and DM's used perform or bluff in their events for disguise up until now... It's not fair towards people who have put an effort into their roleplay to disguise their character's heritage to have people all of a sudden just right click them and find out their race.

We are aware of the issue, given that mechanical investment is required now. We are likely to be providing some way of amending buts to gain access to the skill for existing players so they don't get high and dry

Another thing that bothers me about this feature and disguise in general is, when I appraise someone who is disguised and I beat their disguise roll with my spot roll, all I get is the information that they are disguised (unless I know them from before? not sure how this mechanic works exactly)... that's not enough information IMO. How am I supposed to translate that into roleplay if people aren't obliged to describe what exactly is disguised? Am I missing something?

Valid feedback, it would be best given in the Suggestions/Bugreports forum, it will be lost here

[Hawke]

The disguise system is inherently flawed. Don't get me wrong, I love that it is finally here.

But everyone who can raise spot to the max, will. Because of HiPSters. So basically the only person who will be successful at disguising will have Charisma as their primary stat and avoid the hell out of druids.


Using the mechanic to spot someone's disguise IS a very ooc thing. It should be treated as such unless the Spotter, has a reason to disbelieve the disguise to look harder.

The most common of simple disguises will to be to hide ones origin. Half Elf, Tiefling, Orc, etc. You can really screw up someone's mojo by clicking a button..... while in fact you are looking them up and down and getting into their face, and stalking them,etc.

Only time will tell. I am looking forward to this mechanic, but it's success and failure will rest firmly on the shoulders of the player base.

[Hoihe]

Perhaps having the Disguise DC be half of Perform, half of bluff and full Disguise skill?

So someone with 30 disguise, 30 perform, 30 bluff can have 60 DC.

[Nomster]

So, there is an actual disguise skill out there now...?

[Hawke]

Yes, Nomster there is.


And Hoihe, I think half perform and full disguise is fine, as long as everyone can access perform, be it a class skill or not. so they can at least get +8 to disguise while those with perform can get +16 to a total of 49 disguise +5 for charisma bonus for a total of 54 disguise.

That would be very modest and a heavy investment for someone to do in order to be proficient in disguise,,, where one just needs a single skill to defeat it. Which druids and other classes can get to some stupidly high spot skills

[Hoihe]

Yes, Nomster there is.


And Hoihe, I think half perform and full disguise is fine, as long as everyone can access perform, be it a class skill or not. so they can at least get +8 to disguise while those with perform can get +16 to a total of 49 disguise +5 for charisma bonus for a total of 54 disguise.

That would be very modest and a heavy investment for someone to do in order to be proficient in disguise,,, where one just needs a single skill to defeat it. Which druids and other classes can get to some stupidly high spot skills

As a fun fact, wizards CANNOT take perform ranks, EVEN if the character has able learner and 2 classes that have it.

[Hawke]

Yes, Nomster there is.


And Hoihe, I think half perform and full disguise is fine, as long as everyone can access perform, be it a class skill or not. so they can at least get +8 to disguise while those with perform can get +16 to a total of 49 disguise +5 for charisma bonus for a total of 54 disguise.

That would be very modest and a heavy investment for someone to do in order to be proficient in disguise,,, where one just needs a single skill to defeat it. Which druids and other classes can get to some stupidly high spot skills

As a fun fact, wizards CANNOT take perform ranks, EVEN if the character has able learner and 2 classes that have it.

I love fun facts. But this one is a downer lol!

[Nomster]

I personally do not see the need of a new skill. Perform or Bluff can be used, whichever is highest (not both).

Right now, Disguise skill has no items with skill bonuses. Sense Motive was added years ago but there is still no equipment in the Seven Suns. So anyone with invested spot all ranks & mediocre gear will always see through a disguise, pretty much.



((I see no reason for why perform should not be a cross-class skill for all classes. Arcane Scholar cannot cross class it either))

[Hawke]

And that is my concern with the skill Nomster.

Everyone who can take spot, does. Why? Because of HiPSters. So it will be one of those skills that everyone will be able to burst someone's RP bubble, because they can.

[thids]

Actually I would say that the majority of people take listen over spot for easier sneak detection, because you can buff listen with spells while move silently can't be buffed by much. Disguise mechanic might actually balance the field between spot and listen as most builds will have to choose between easier sneak detection or countering feint and disguise. This is all before taking roleplay into consideration, ofc.


That said, I would personally agree with leaving disguise up to either bluff or perform, simply because introducing a new skill (one which is represented by a few mechanical systems, unlike sense motive) brings headaches such as presented in this thread. (can't say I'm completely objective in this matter though, as I currently play a character with relatively high bluff)

[roke42]

I think disguise and seeing though disguises needs to need additional rulings. I would think it is almost impossible to distingish if there is a human, elf, aasimar, half-elf, tiefling and whatnot inside this bulky fully covered armor with helmet standing over there, regardless any skill bonuses.