Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Tsidkenu wrote: I thought this was not the case?

Only the caster gets to see the will save spam (which should also be removed imo to avoid metagaming the presence of nearby sneaks). Targets in the AoE roll will saves, but secretly, so they don't know someone in the vicinity has Amplify or C/C active. At least this is how it was supposed to work.

Endelyon wrote:

Thorsson wrote:And so if you don't do an event where the DM calls for it then it's absolutely useless?

Maybe we should nerf everything that way, if it's such a great idea.

No, definitely not. We shouldn't nerf everything that way.

But I'm pretty sure you just got about 100 new spells that have mechanical effects, and one thing that should be an RP spell got changed to an RP spell.

I like the change to Legend Lore. If you want a spell that helps you identify items, I might suggest "Identify."

Tsidkenu wrote: I thought this was not the case?

Only the caster gets to see the will save spam (which should also be removed imo to avoid metagaming the presence of nearby sneaks). Targets in the AoE roll will saves, but secretly, so they don't know someone in the vicinity has Amplify or C/C active. At least this is how it was supposed to work.

Clairaudience/clairvoyance creates an invisible magical sensor at a specific location that enables you to hear or see (your choice) almost as if you were there. You don’t need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one. Once you have selected the locale, the sensor doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10-foot radius around the center of the spell’s effect. Clairaudience/clairvoyance functions only on the plane of existence you are currently occupying.

AC81 wrote:Wand usage is now crippled on this server. Wands are largely useless. At this point you need to be a caster level 30 caster or a non-UMD reliant melee build. Of the wands you mention M3nt, one has a duration of 5 rounds, the other 10 rounds - and really it's 4 and 9 rounds due to casting time.

After which, the sneak can just go back to abusing the extremely broken feat that is HiPS.

The only time that it is truly worthwhile using Amplify is with a bard, so it's a niche ability for the bars that you are nerfing. I kind of agree that +20 is overkill, but keep in mind that every build should have a counter.

What about spot? Most bards don't boost spot, any feinter will carve bards up. Or they can use silence ...

Tell me, have you guys nerfed a Druids ability to counter sneaks? Have you nerfed Owls Insight? Or would that rock the boat too much? To use your reasoning, any spell that gives +12 to abilities is way above the curve and thus should be culled? Besides, that spell does more than add to listen ....
What about those builds that can't detect sneaks but don't care anyway because sneaks just plain can't hit or hurt them? Mirror Images, Premonition, Armoured Sorcerers .... It's a can of worms, where do you stop?

Why not just give sneak gear the boost it deserves, leave other classes alone and move on ...

Also, I still don't understand, if we are a server that doesn't care about pvp, then why do we care if there is a disparity between sneak and detect bonuses available AS LONG AS THE GEAR AVAILABLE IS OF THE SAME QUALITY?

AC81 wrote:m3nt you know I love you and all the work you do for this server (really, incredible) so I don't want you to think I'm taking a personal stab at you or anything, but I feel you're glossing over a few things in your previous post. Namely ...

Wand are dispellable ... VERY dispellable. But do you seriously think pvp is going to really go down like this: Sneaker > hips, Non-sneaker > aha, hipster! uses wand of amplify, chases sneaker for 4 rounds, Sneaker > hips, Non-sneaker > aha, hipster! uses wand of amplify ... times 50 times number of wands of amplify they have. Really? Wands of Amplify are pretty terrible. They last 4 rounds, as soon as the sneaker goes back into stealth after 1 round, you have to find them again. Any sneaks worth their salt could play hit and run , or just evade for 4 rounds. You say wands have many charges, well, I haven't exactly seen any limit of uses of the hips ability, so the amount of times a wand can be used is irrelevant. Also, while our non-sneaking friend is constantly applying amplify, C/C and restoring health from crippling strike, our sneak is either killing him or getting away.

A lot of hiding happens when players RP their characters, yes. This makes sneaking around druids, rangers and maybe monks and bards very dangerous, as it should be. One question - why would a player just up and use a 4 round buff for no reason other than metagaming footsteps or buffs on the sneak? That's a small window of opportunity, really small. And it is crazy obvious in an RP context when someone does that - it's because they've heard footsteps, seen the sneak transition and then they go "Oop, time to use my 4 round wand of sneak destruction!" Without that wand however, sneaks can get around other character quite easily.

It ISN'T easy to max spot now, at least not without making sacrifices. You want spot? Then you need another class ... let's say rogue, nice easy dip yeah? You get spot, evasion for expose and more skill points. Only the problem is that now you have only light armour and restricted weapons. No room for spot on EDM bards that want to stay safe from dispels - cause if a bard gets dispelled he's got problems. So all this just to get spot on a build that already has huge listen capabilities. Like I said, most won't bother.

From what I hear, sneak gear is about to make a big come back. I get the feeling that is what is being pushed for, I've seen good sneak gear in the new shop and most likely there will be more to follow. The thing is m3nt, you talk like there aren't spells out there that boost hide or move silently. There are ... and their duration is considerable. So I'm kinda tired of people talking about sneakers like they're the ugly cousin. They do fine, it's just that some classes have a hard counter for them.

The +20 is overkill, agreed. But I still think it should be a bard spell because it is a hard spell to know when to use. I don't think it should be able to be made into a wand at all, in any form of the spell. Much like holy sword and bless weapon.

Anyway, I've gone a bit off-topic in my insane rant. I guess I'm just left scratching my head a little. Why was that nerf made before others? Why was it then implemented in such a clunky way with the saves? It just doesn't add up in my mind. My fix would be simple:
*Lower Amplify to +10 ... no saves.
*Keep C/C as it was before.
*Make Amplify unable to be crafted into wands.
*Bring sneak gear up to parity with detect gear.

Why could this not have been done?

mrm3ntalist wrote:Believe it or not that is close to the initial suggestion. Simply limiting skills and not going the DC route.

Personally for the detection/sneak mechanics i would like to see the following.
- Someone who invests in detection should have a good chance detecting the sneak.
- Gear should be more balanced. I understand that Detection gear needs to be a bit more easily available, but not by much and certainly not the sorry state we currently are, where we hope for a veteran player to retire his character in order to have a chance to get sneak gear.
- No high skill bonus from spells. For both sides. Making it easy to reach the skill cap is breaking the game engine.

That is my view in general. Trust when i say that if we end up with undetectable sneak i will be the first to ask to swing the nerf bat, however the numbers dont support this.

LISA100595 wrote:Has anyone gotten C/C or Amplify to work at all?

I don't mind reducing the bonus they offer ( I do understand the reasons those have said above ) but this seems unnecessarily complicated just to nerf a couple spells. Why can't we just reduce the amount for instance of Amplify to 10 instead of 20?

I have brought this up before that The Will saves ( according to PNP / D&D ) are supposed to be rolled by the person the spell is cast On, and then Only if the person it is cast on is Unwilling. Since I am willing to cast it upon myself, I would not roll a save at all.