Amplify, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Legend Lore

[AC81]

Can someone please explain what has happened to these 3 spells?

Amplify now gives a save (this part I knew) but does it give any bonus if the save is successful? C/C now has some ridiculous menu pop up and doesn't seem to give any bonus nor does it allow a save. LL doesn't do anything now that the lore skills are separated.

C/C really didn't need to be tampered with. It's a level 3 spell that only lasts for 1 round/level - why change that?!?! Even Amplify, why change it? Most bards don't invest in spot, so they still can't see sneakers. And the DC is so ridiculously low that it may as well be just a static bonus ... at least then it doesn't flood your combat log with save rolls.

Why are all these changes being made to things that were working fine? Is it a class power issue? If so, have any Druid or FS spells/abilities been nerfed? Seems like with some of these things we're trying to reinvent the wheel a bit.

[Kayan]

Why are all these changes being made to things that were working fine?

I've raised this same point a number of times only to have it shrugged off. It seems like the update included as many unwelcome changes as it did positive ones.

[Endelyon]

Can someone please explain what has happened to these 3 spells?

Amplify now gives a save (this part I knew) but does it give any bonus if the save is successful? C/C now has some ridiculous menu pop up and doesn't seem to give any bonus nor does it allow a save. LL doesn't do anything now that the lore skills are separated.

As you said, C&C and Amplify have been given a save. It will not show you any bonus on your character sheet, and I think the bonus is applied as hidden penalty to the person who fails the DC.

Chill out about the menu pop up. That's the new subradial UI, and it works well. C&C gives a bonus to EITHER spot or listen now, NOT both. Again, this bonus (or penalty) is applied invisibly.

All the DC rolls for Amplify & C&C were set to be hidden to prevent metagaming. There are DCs being rolled, you just can't see them in the combat log.

C/C really didn't need to be tampered with. It's a level 3 spell that only lasts for 1 round/level - why change that?!?! Even Amplify, why change it? Most bards don't invest in spot, so they still can't see sneakers. And the DC is so ridiculously low that it may as well be just a static bonus ... at least then it doesn't flood your combat log with save rolls.

Yup. The spells are utter crap now thanks to the addition of the DC. I'm not going to make any bones about it, we really dropped the ball with that change. It's absolutely terrible now.

Why are all these changes being made to things that were working fine? Is it a class power issue? If so, have any Druid or FS spells/abilities been nerfed? Seems like with some of these things we're trying to reinvent the wheel a bit.

I'm sorry this change has agitated you AC81. I know it can be very frustrating when mechanics change in general, much less are changed from "a really great spell" to "an absolute waste of a spell slot."

I've heard absolutely nothing but negative feedback about this change to Amp/C&C's mechanics. I'm going to see if I can raise the question with QC about getting it changed back, or perhaps to some new version that is at least SOMEWHAT useful if they feel the original version was far too strong.

Frankly things have gotten a little bit out of hand following the major update. It should have been put in piecemeal instead of all at once, and I'm starting to think we're still going to be fixing things and finding bugs six months to a year from now.

Oh, on one final note, Legend Lore was changed to function as its pnp equivelant. It shouldn't be adding a lore bonus at all, because the skill "lore" doesn't exist and does nothing but identify items. Legend Lore would not add to knowledge skills, and now really only functions in DM events, allowing a bard to divine legends surrounding a magical item or artifact or place or person or thing. I DO agree with this change and support it fully!

[Thorsson]

And so if you don't do an event where the DM calls for it then it's absolutely useless?

Maybe we should nerf everything that way, if it's such a great idea.

[Endelyon]

And so if you don't do an event where the DM calls for it then it's absolutely useless?

Maybe we should nerf everything that way, if it's such a great idea.

No, definitely not. We shouldn't nerf everything that way.

But I'm pretty sure you just got about 100 new spells that have mechanical effects, and one thing that should be an RP spell got changed to an RP spell.

I like the change to Legend Lore. If you want a spell that helps you identify items, I might suggest "Identify."

[Flasmix]

All the DC rolls for Amplify & C&C were set to be hidden to prevent metagaming. There are DCs being rolled, you just can't see them in the combat log.

Oh, they're only hidden for one party. God forbid I cast it and then walk into a group of people. The complaints are guaranteed to start as everybody is spammed with will saves every round. It's impossible to do it while HIPS'd as people just know it's a dead give-away that someone's there.

[AC81]

As a bard, I'm not worried about identifying items ... with 2 rings of +5 lore, greater heroism and inspire competence I can ID anything without the use of spells. I just want to know HOW it's going to be used by DM's. There's a few 'must have' spells for bards, the rest I chose were RP spells (and I fully accept that LL falls into this category, which is why I picked it). I'd just like to know HOW DM's are going to use on the extremely rare occasion that I'm in an event.

IMO, the changes to amplify and C/C are ridiculous. Amplify is now a joke - but it is actually still more powerful than C/C - and one is 3rd level and one is 1st level!!! Who approved that change? Neither spell was broken - they were both highly situational spells that only lasted 1 round per level. Maybe Amplify could've been toned down to a static +10 (which I guess it essentially has been).

But still, how is this change (to both spells) helping the server? What was the direction behind the thought process? I'm assuming power balance - sneaks vs. detectors? But this server has never been about pvp (or so everyone says) and we don't balance toward pvp. As it used to stand, sneaks could dominate pve as could detectors. If we ARE trying to achieve an MMO style of balance between classes, why not start trimming the very top of the pvp tree in sorcerers/wizards/FS's, instead of hitting a few spells to help in listen (most people take spot btw to stop feint and to now see through disguise).

Sorry for the rant ... I always try to be unbiased, but these particular changes (and I'm sure many others that don't effect my particular pc) just seem to be made for the sake of change. Does anyone have an actual reason why these changes were pushed out?

[TarnishedSoul]

Legend Lore works as intended for me when I cast it. The bonus is applied to Lore: Arcana.

[Bad Omens]

Not happy with changes either.

[mrm3ntalist]

But still, how is this change (to both spells) helping the server? What was the direction behind the thought process? I'm assuming power balance - sneaks vs. detectors? But this server has never been about pvp (or so everyone says) and we don't balance toward pvp. As it used to stand, sneaks could dominate pve as could detectors.

It helps by making the stealth/detection mechanics more fair. Its not about pvp but of course it affects it, as many other changes do ( it affects in a way that there is no more an "I Detect" button - clicking on those two wands ).

There are some standards already set in place.
1. The 1d20 rolls. These favor the detector. If the gear was the same ( even slightly better gear for sneaks ) the 1d20 rolls help the detector since you only need to fail one roll to be detected
2. Gear availability. I think you above all, can understand that. You know very well how crazy things can get with gear for sneaks. During the years the only nerfs that took place regarding gear, was to nerf sneak gear. Even though most were alright ( no +10 or +6 hide/ms ) it reached to a point that anything more than +3 ( even +3 for many slots ) were non existent. On the contrary, +3 and +4 detection gear are easily available.
3. Low magic world. Simply there is no other spell or item that gives +20 on a skill that affects mechanics. When the maximum most skills get are +4, +20 is retarded.
4. The availability of the spell. Amplify can be crafted on a wand so everyone can have it and can have many castings of it. It is not situational, since you have it when you need it.
5. Finally this is the point that demonstrates how unfair those bonuses are. Engine limitations. The cap on skill bonuses is 50. With those 2 spells you can get +30 just like that making it easy to reach that 50cap with ease. that means that even if we introduce the most godly sneak equipment ( +20hide/ms etc ), even then the detectors will stil lbe able to detect any sneak because of that cap and the 1d20 rolls.

In short, leaving the wands as they were, is like intentionaly deciding to leave the detect/sneak mechanics gimped in favor of the detector. Doing the math, there is no way to make an undetectable sneak. What these changes do, is for a character that invested everything in sneaking, sacrificing AC,HP, Saves for it, to stand a chance and not be detected from a character with just maxed listen and no other investement other than buying two wands. That same sneak character can be detected by a character with one maxed detection skill and items and will always be detected by certain builds.

[Tsidkenu]

All the DC rolls for Amplify & C&C were set to be hidden to prevent metagaming. There are DCs being rolled, you just can't see them in the combat log.

Oh, they're only hidden for one party. God forbid I cast it and then walk into a group of people. The complaints are guaranteed to start as everybody is spammed with will saves every round. It's impossible to do it while HIPS'd as people just know it's a dead give-away that someone's there.

I thought this was not the case?

Only the caster gets to see the will save spam (which should also be removed imo to avoid metagaming the presence of nearby sneaks). Targets in the AoE roll will saves, but secretly, so they don't know someone in the vicinity has Amplify or C/C active. At least this is how it was supposed to work.

[AC81]

Wand usage is now crippled on this server. Wands are largely useless. At this point you need to be a caster level 30 caster or a non-UMD reliant melee build. Of the wands you mention M3nt, one has a duration of 5 rounds, the other 10 rounds - and really it's 4 and 9 rounds due to casting time. After which, the sneak can just go back to abusing the extremely broken feat that is HiPS. The only time that it is truly worthwhile using Amplify is with a bard, so it's a niche ability for the bars that you are nerfing. I kind of agree that +20 is overkill, but keep in mind that every build should have a counter. What about spot? Most bards don't boost spot, any feinter will carve bards up. Or they can use silence ... Tell me, have you guys nerfed a Druids ability to counter sneaks? Have you nerfed Owls Insight? Or would that rock the boat too much? To use your reasoning, any spell that gives +12 to abilities is way above the curve and thus should be culled? Besides, that spell does more than add to listen ....
What about those builds that can't detect sneaks but don't care anyway because sneaks just plain can't hit or hurt them? Mirror Images, Premonition, Armoured Sorcerers .... It's a can of worms, where do you stop?
Why not just give sneak gear the boost it deserves, leave other classes alone and move on ...

Also, I still don't understand, if we are a server that doesn't care about pvp, then why do we care if there is a disparity between sneak and detect bonuses available AS LONG AS THE GEAR AVAILABLE IS OF THE SAME QUALITY?

[LISA100595]

Has anyone gotten C/C or Amplify to work at all?

I don't mind reducing the bonus they offer ( I do understand the reasons those have said above ) but this seems unnecessarily complicated just to nerf a couple spells. Why can't we just reduce the amount for instance of Amplify to 10 instead of 20?

I have brought this up before that The Will saves ( according to PNP / D&D ) are supposed to be rolled by the person the spell is cast On, and then Only if the person it is cast on is Unwilling. Since I am willing to cast it upon myself, I would not roll a save at all.

[Darkcloud777]

////I tend to agree with ac81. amp and clairvoyance wands are highly situational. can we please just put it back the way it was?

[Blackman D]

then why do we care if there is a disparity between sneak and detect bonuses available AS LONG AS THE GEAR AVAILABLE IS OF THE SAME QUALITY?

well it has been said repeatedly in like every thread it comes up in, gear -isnt- the same