DM Ruling on Undead Summining...

[Tsidkenu]

...Blood Magic is not for auto PVP...

Wrong. If you use Bloodseeking Spell (-not- Blood Component) in public and someone successfully identifies the spell as such, you have automatically consented to PvP. I would temper that fact with the additional roleplaying proviso: while Bloodseeking Spell has a special VFX when cast just for that purpose, ICly players should be responsible for RPing their toons' spellcraft skill. Someone without Lore:Arcana or Spellcraft would have no idea that Bloodseeking magic was used. A highly skilled arcanst, however, would. And they are the ones who should be acting out any pvp consent, not a magically-illiterate fighter etc.

[chad878262]

Always seemed odd to me that being in stealth and not exiting stealth if another player indicates for you to do so is auto consenting to PvP...However, summoning evil beasties is not.

Paladin: Whoever you are, come out from the shadows and show me your face or I shall righteously smite thee!

Sneak:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paladin: I have slain your evil minion and now I will slay you, should you consent...

Necromancer: Ummmm....no?

[LISA100595]

Always seemed odd to me that being in stealth and not exiting stealth if another player indicates for you to do so is auto consenting to PvP...However, summoning evil beasties is not.

Paladin: Whoever you are, come out from the shadows and show me your face or I shall righteously smite thee!

Sneak:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paladin: I have slain your evil minion and now I will slay you, should you consent...

Necromancer: Ummmm....no?

LMAO! That's funny because its TRUE

[Flasmix]

One of those funny but sad things, lol.

We should go a step further to making sure each and every player properly consents to any and all PVP on the server by introducing a new submission tool called; Consent Forms. Essentially, you are taken to a screen where you fill in a few basic pieces of information.

1) Your PC Name
2) Person you wish to PVP name
3) Reason for the PVP
4) A checkbox beside a statement saying "I, PC Name, consent that I wish to fight with (Other Name) accepting the RP consequences."

Both parties must fill out one of these forms and when a DM can see that both parties have consented, they will each get a PM saying that they may begin the PVP encounter. We really need to consider the feelings of people who want to play evil necromancers and demon summoners. Don't they deserve a chance to live? I think this new consent system would ease the burden on DMs when it comes to PVP complaints.

[Uther3867]

yes it is, i remeber seeing a undead running threw bergost and just using the paladins lay on hands ability and it died

[chad878262]

Just to clarify... I think the stealth rules are fair and realistic. In general a person is not going to beat the crap out of someone perceived to be sneaking about (unless perhaps said sneak is also Breaking and Entering or otherwise engaged in some nefarious and obvious act.)

However, I believe it is inconsistent to have blood magic = auto consent, yet warlocks and spell casters who have cast EVIL spells = PvP rules apply. In my opinion any usage of evil magic should be treated the same (either auto consent or RP out) since all are equally deemed as banned in civilized areas and as per server lore are all equally evil/frowned upon. Of course issues of metagaming exist (just like they do with folks using 'footsteps' to perceive a sneak they have not actually spotted mechanically), but IMO if a rule applies to one type of evil it should apply to other types.

[chad878262]

Ok question what does auto consent mean? Do you still have to give a RP out?

I don't get what all the fuss is about, if you want to attack a warlock because you play a goodly yadayada then feel free to do so, just give them the rp out, same applies to pretty much everything... Not such a big deal.

Well auto consent means no rp out required. So if a bloodmage uses blood seeking spell and is witnessed by the goodly yadayada, said yadayada can immediately attack the blood mage. RP being good guy witnessed bad guy being bad. However, the same yadayada witnessing a necromancer running about with his vampire warlock must allow for RP out. So it is a different standard blood mage gets held to that the warlock or necromancer does not.

[Maecius]

As chambordini says, basically anything that'd start a fight in the real world can pretty easily start a fight in the game world.

Just remember to put roleplay first and to toggle hostile.

The RP out rules are primarily A) to prevent people from PVPing other players with zero in character reason, or with really weak reasons ("my character's a mass murderer!"); and B) to prevent prolonged no-warning and disruptive PVP-on-sight feuds between hostile guilds or player characters, and ambush/assassination attacks that take advantage of mechanical knowledge ("he's probably still loading the map, attack before he can load in!").

They're not meant to allow people to harass others in character with zero in character consequences just because "I want to opt out now that I'm about to find out why it's a bad idea to summon a demon inside a temple of Tyr."

In such a situation, "lay down your arms and surrender!" is a valid RP out. They can at that point comply (take the RP out), run (consent to PVP), attack (consent to PVP), or try to roleplay their way out of it (with possible consent to PVP if they take any actions that could reasonably be interpreted as being hostile).

As with all the rules, RP out is simply meant to protect players from abuse. If the scene develops naturally through RP, it's probably in line with the rules. If you're considering attacking for an OOC reason ("she's a low level, I can win"), I'd double, triple check yourself to make sure the RP fully supports what you are wanting to do OOC.

The DMs decide if a rule was broken or exploited on a case by case basis, and tend to do so fairly, taking in both sides of the encounter. If you're actively roleplaying your character (that is, with dialogue or emotes), have toggled hostile, and the situation is still being escalated by the other party? You're probably fine to attack in most cases.

Of course, expect a possible alignment shift (and possible in character consequences) if you out and out murder someone and it's not in self defense or the defense of others. Judge Dredd was not a paladin.

But the rules are not there to inhibit realism or destroy your immersion. At their heart, they're just there to remind people to be considerate of each other, and to put roleplay above mechanics as much as it's possible.

[Hawke]

...Blood Magic is not for auto PVP...

Wrong. If you use Bloodseeking Spell (-not- Blood Component) in public and someone successfully identifies the spell as such, you have automatically consented to PvP. I would temper that fact with the additional roleplaying proviso: while Bloodseeking Spell has a special VFX when cast just for that purpose, ICly players should be responsible for RPing their toons' spellcraft skill. Someone without Lore:Arcana or Spellcraft would have no idea that Bloodseeking magic was used. A highly skilled arcanst, however, would. And they are the ones who should be acting out any pvp consent, not a magically-illiterate fighter etc.

Ok... That is like saying Necromancy is auto consent to PvP... but only if...

Of course, you erupt out of someone's body... kind of hard to explain why you are covered in blood, while they are inside out.

No different than creating undead, or summoning demons. It's what you do with it that matters, not the fact you have that power at your disposal.

[Boddynock]

In such a situation, "lay down your arms and surrender!" is a valid RP out. They can at that point comply (take the RP out), run (consent to PVP), attack (consent to PVP), or try to roleplay their way out of it (with possible consent to PVP if they take any actions that could reasonably be interpreted as being hostile).

Oh my god this, I have been saying basically the same thing for a while now. The rules state that an RP out must be given, not that the player receiving the out has any choice in what that out is.

Imagine this scenario: A player roleplaying an arrogant, haughty, swordsman (dime a dozen on our server) has his honor insulted by some scallawag low life thug.

Arrogant dude: "You have sullied my honor, prostrate yourself in apology or I will cut your legs from under you and force you to prostrate yourself."

Scallawag that insulted him: "Nah mate, that's cool..." and then walks away...

At that point the scallawag player REFUSED his RP out and has consented to PVP.

Yes, this is a simple example, but it holds true. (It is also possible that if the scalawag was insulting the arrogant PC repeatedly after being warned, the constant insulting is consent in itself, but that isn't the point I am making.)

The point I AM making is that the RP out rule isn't meant to shelter players from IC consequences of their choices, it is in existence to prevent the issues Maecius already brought up.

[Kagger911]

I agree with being attack in pvp if you have the summon out, but look where you are when you do it.

Example: If it's in soubar, some may care, and be scared of you; but it's still lawless.

[The Whistler]

Lawless =/= Uncivilized

Practices such as raising the dead are universally frowned upon. Just because there is no law stating that you can't create undead doesn't mean that the locals will just go about their merry way after seeing you do it. And the lawless argument cuts both ways; my LG paladin can smite Darkshadowbad McBlacknails to dust and no one will bat an eyelash. IMO there never is a good enough reason not to attack a necromancer on sight, unless their actions are abetted by local law (for example Thay).

[Darkcloud777]

I will chime in here.

Recently Terri walked up to the campfire where a vampire summons was standing by. she casted a dismiss spell and then informed the group at the fire that a vampire was lurking unknown to them all. once the vampire was killed instead of jumping into a messy pvp this is what occurred.


///spoiler alert, this is a section from the rp......I want to stress the ROLE PLAY aspect . No pvp occurred and it a lot of fun for me.

Hidden: show

[19:47] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "stupid vampire"
[19:47] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] . . .
[19:47] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] "Vampire?'
[19:47] [Vrass] Osmodeus Blacksoul: [Talk] vampire?
[19:47] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] "Did you find Devlin?'
[19:47] [fearman182] Wesmille: [Talk] <C=pink>He moves his C6 pawn forward.
[19:47] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] I'm not a vampire.
[19:47] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] here?
[19:47] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "yes, it was standy in the fire"
[19:48] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Uhuh...
[19:48] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Maybe the invisible man knows of it"
[19:48] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] <C=pink>indicates by the boulder"
[19:48] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] Terri what does that man look like?
[19:49] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "blue hood, goatee"
[19:49] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] <C=pink>nods
[19:49] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "sort of ruggedly dressed"
[19:49] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "you dontt see him?"
[19:50] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "By the boulder"
[19:50] [fearman182] Wesmille: [Talk] <C=pink>He looks over his shoulder.</C> I don't see anyone.
[19:50] [Vrass] Osmodeus Blacksoul: [Talk] magic prob
[19:50] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Hello"
[19:50] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Hello
[19:50] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] *moves her rook to D8*
[19:50] [fearman182] Wesmille: [Talk] Oh, now I see him.
[19:51] [fearman182] Wesmille: [Talk] <C=pink>He takes her bishop with his king.
[19:51] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "you should be careful , a vampire was just here"
[19:51] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] So why hide invisible
[19:51] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "none knew it"
[19:51] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Really now?
[19:51] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Roll Target: Devlin Black
<color=cyan>DMFI Dice Roll for: Bluff Mod: 13 TOTAL: 33</color>
[19:51] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] *takes his knight with her rook*
[19:51] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Interesting....
[19:51] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "well, i took care of it"
[19:51] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] Roll Target: General Area
<color=cyan>DMFI Dice Roll for: Sense motive Mod: 21 TOTAL: 30</color>
[19:52] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Well good, can't have blood suckers stalking us at evry corner right?
[19:52] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "I dont believe we have met, My names Terri"
[19:53] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] "Oh right. Check."
[19:53] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Names Daunte, pleasure
[19:53] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "its gone, no need to worry"
[19:53] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] <C=pink> watches him carefully
[19:53] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Well met Daunte"
[19:53] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] <C=pink>winks at Terri</C>
[19:53] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Roll Target: Devlin Black
<color=cyan>DMFI Dice Roll for: Charisma Mod: 9 TOTAL: 28</color>
[19:54] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] <C=pink>nods to Kalidorian
[19:54] [fearman182] Wesmille: [Talk] <C=pink>He moves his king to E5.
[19:54] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] <C=pink>grins and rolls her eyes
[19:54] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] You will be at the Fesival correct Terri?
[19:54] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "best be careful Dante, smiles like that can get a man into trouble"
[19:55] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Aye Kalidorian, I will try to make it. "
[19:55] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] Trouble seems to follow me where ever I go. It's somethign I must manage. <C=pink>grins</C>
[19:55] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] <C=pink>crosses his arms and watches the chess match</C>
[19:55] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] Good Vendor will be there at my side
[19:56] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Heh, well I hope you never meet Trouble, she tends to kill first and ask questions later." <C=pink>sounds completely serious as if she is speaking of a real person
[19:57] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] <C=pink>nods</C> indeed
[19:57] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] Terri till the Festival may I stay in the lodge?
[19:58] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Sure, you can sleep on one of the conservatory couches, assuming you dont mind the plant " <C=pink>teases
[19:58] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Wow this game is taking forever"
[19:58] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] . . .
[19:59] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] <C=pink>looks over at the chess set
[19:59] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Oh how long away is the Festival?
[19:59] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] Nay they are no bother to me <C=pink> looks to her but his face shows something in his eyes</C>
[19:59] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] *ponders*
[19:59] [Vrass] Osmodeus Blacksoul: [Talk] a festival?
[19:59] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] Two days
[19:59] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] <C=pink>nods
[20:00] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Right. Thanks. <C=pink>nodding
[20:00] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Whisper] Terri have you seen the girl named Ashley lately?
[20:01] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] <C=pink>waves</C>
[20:01] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Tell] do me a favor and add the name Daunte to your examine
[20:01] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] You are welcome
[20:01] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] hello
[20:01] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] <C=pink>waves at Charbreena
[20:01] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] "Hi Char"
[20:01] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] *Moves her rook to C2*
[20:01] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Tell] sure
[20:01] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] <C=pink>crosses arms</C>
[20:02] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Hello Charbreena.
[20:02] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Been a bit.
[20:02] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] <C=pink>nods</C> Hinzel...
[20:02] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Whisper] She claims she purchased a body and people took it from her but why would a person buy a body?
[20:02] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] oh forgot...hello inzel
[20:02] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] hinzel
[20:02] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Tell] done
[20:02] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Whisper] "I saw her earlier, I heard she treid to purchase a body"
[20:03] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] How are you?
[20:03] [Ravial] Viridiana Lydhaer: [Talk] *The Chess game is nearing its end by now*
[20:03] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] good....and yourself...
[20:03] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Tell] "Terri has never met you except as Daunte lol
[20:03] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] ?
[20:03] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Whisper] It is unnaturall to do such .
[20:03] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Good enough. <C=pink>smiles softly
[20:03] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Tell] I figured, good play.
[20:03] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] I see you have a stick...
[20:04] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] hmm or staff
[20:04] [InsaniD] Kalidorian: [Talk] <C=pink> whisper whisper
[20:04] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] does it help
[20:04] [Cuchulain] Hinzel: [Talk] Yeah. Helps me find my way and such.
[20:04] [Darkcloud777] Terri Lalani: [Talk] <C=pink>whisper whispers back
[20:04] [Pan-some] Charbreena: [Talk] indeed
[20:04] [fearman182] Wesmille: [Talk] <C=pink>He moves a rook to C1.
[20:04] [thanatos] Devlin Black: [Talk] <C=pink>yawns andwalks toward the Inn</C>

not everything has to devolve into pvp. use the opportunities presented to create rp and lets all agree to have fun while doing it.. Terri finally got to meet Devlin Black an he got to meet Trouble (known aliases of Terri include...........Terri.......Bast(to a very small group)..........Trouble......and lastly..............Tricks...........)

[V'rass]

IMO there never is a good enough reason not to attack a necromancer on sight, unless their actions are abetted by local law (for example Thay).

Survival is more then a good enough reason not to mess with necromancers. My toons are not going to stupidly challenge every single villain they see just because that person is a villain and happens to be right in-front of them. Not only is that asking to get killed, my characters are not one to judge or bother people because certain things they do are considered evil. If said villains are not doing anything evil when they encounter them and make no move to attack them then they will prob just continue with their business.

Its not my characters job to right every wrong and punish every crime. As long as the villains don't try to mess with them or harm anyone there will be no problem. Starting fights with every super-villain on the server on sight simply because they are evil when they are not causing trouble falls under the (Lawful-Stupid/Stupid-Good) alignments. I want none of that foolishness. Don't bother my characters or their friends and they wont bother you.

[Blame The Rogue]

IMO there never is a good enough reason not to attack a necromancer on sight, unless their actions are abetted by local law (for example Thay).

Survival is more then a good enough reason not to mess with necromancers. My toons are not going to stupidly challenge every single villain they see just because that person is a villain and happens to be right in-front of them. Not only is that asking to get killed, my characters are not one to judge or bother people because certain things they do are considered evil. If said villains are not doing anything evil when they encounter them and make no move to attack them then they will prob just continue with their business.

Its not my characters job to right every wrong and punish every crime. As long as the villains don't try to mess with them or harm anyone there will be no problem. Starting fights with every super-villain on the server on sight simply because they are evil when they are not causing trouble falls under the (Lawful-Stupid/Stupid-Good) alignments. I want none of that foolishness. Don't bother my characters or their friends and they wont bother you.

i'm on board with this. none of my characters have been paladins. most have been roguish in one way or another. the first question my character would ask himself is this, "is there profit in it?" the second question is, "is it worth dying for?" the answer would typically be no on both counts, so he'd go about his business and forget he saw anything