Surface Drow ( was: DM approval?)

[Deathgrowl]

I would think the KOS rules for drow would be more of a hindrance to Elistraen RP on the surface than these rules. Considering anyone can walk up and kill you at any time because drow seems much more difficult to play around. Just my take though.

Also fully agreed. The entire idea of KOS is a detriment to RP in general. At least in the current format.

[DM Theophanies]

Currently it will be treated in a case by case manner, as it has been in the past.

At the moment it will basically be a roleplay milestone or a roleplay consequence for players, that is to say living on the other side because of either failure or achievement. This is how it has been treated in the past and how we will continue to treat it. This means exactly as it sounds as well, that we will likely not accept biographies for new characters and give the stamp of approval to dwell permanently on the other side.

So what does it mean then? It means we want you to work for it. Document your roleplay in journals, RP threads and guild forums. Show us your character is making progress to get to their goal. Show us as well that you as a player understand and can respect the rules for being on the otherside.

Historically the most common form, which some people do have permission currently, is banishment from Sshamath. With the implementation of the Upperdark this may change that dynamic some.

So then, what are we looking for? Basically it boils down to:

1) Flushed out characters (biographies help with this and have XP incentives).
2) Proof of your roleplay towards your goal (RP posts, screen shots, journals, guild forum activity, even DM events).
3) A clear understanding of the rules of engagement. There's no grinding, no questing, respect for NPC populations (no godmodding) when on the other side. You are KOS with the threat of permastrikes.

[Moltrazahn]

Able to discuss religion eh?

*human comes the the ud. Knocking on door*
"C'Suss me m'lord. DO ye 'Ave a moment ta talk bout our saviour lathander d' shining god o' da sun?... the sun... ye kno' big, warm, radiant glowing orb in the sk-... oh. Well i'm started ta' see why 'Dar notion may confuse ye"

[cosmic ray]

I've always found it weird to need Dm consent for the personal decisions of one's own character. Dms are supposed to make the world alive, not play my character for me.

[Deathgrowl]

I've always found it weird to need Dm consent for the personal decisions of one's own character. Dms are supposed to make the world alive, not play my character for me.

Usually it is done to protect the setting from immersion breaking stuff. Imagine if someone decided they wanted to play a character from the Harry Potter universe that just randomly dropped into the Forgotten Realms Setting. Yeah, extreme example, but it makes the point: Protect the immersion of the setting.

Not saying it is the best way to do it, but it probably is the easiest way to do it.

[Apple]

What I don't get is why people -generally speaking- see drow on surface so badly, Forgotten Realms lore say otherwise. Especially eilistraeen and vhaeraunites, there are communities and settlements everywhere. Geographically speaking there's a Eilistraee Shrine right in the middle of Misty Woods, near High Moor, with Rowaan Vrinn as High Priestess... that's one of the most important Eilistraeen NPC. There's such place in game?
There's the Promenade of the Dark Maiden but people can't play it because restrictions or heavy penalties? Or vhaerunites can't weave their plots on surface as it should be?

[grymhild]

What I don't get is why people -generally speaking- see drow on surface so badly, Forgotten Realms lore say otherwise. Especially eilistraeen and vhaeraunites, there are communities and settlements everywhere. Geographically speaking there's a Eilistraee Shrine right in the middle of Misty Woods, near High Moor, with Rowaan Vrinn as High Priestess... that's one of the most important Eilistraeen NPC. There's such place in game?
There's the Promenade of the Dark Maiden but people can't play it because restrictions or heavy penalties? Or vhaerunites can't weave their plots on surface as it should be?

Our server timeline is currently 1352 DR, so while Qilue and the Protectors of Song have been patrolling and guarding the Pit of Ghaunadaur near Skull Port for almost six hundred years, the temple complex that will be known as The Promenade of The Dark Maiden will not begin construction until 1355 DR (and not completed until about 1357).

That said, there were shrines of Eilistraee on the surface that historically were active during our current in game year.

Rowaan Vrinn didn't become high priestess of the Misty Forest Shrine until 1375, so in 1352, the current high priestess would be Rowaan Vrinn's mother, Dark Lady Leliana Vrinn.

I never got around to finishing this, but this is something I was working on a couple years ago - locations of all past, present and future lore-based Eilistraeen shrines.

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[chad878262]

I think the issue as it applies to Drow on the surface/Elistraee specifically is that in 1e the goddess did not exist, but was then retconned in to the setting in 2e as if she's always been there. Now, if it were table top and you were playing 3.x mechanics, but in a 1e setting you'd have to house rule a lot of stuff... Grym and I discussed this briefly on Skype and kleomienes via PM and I think the argument for having Elistraen settlements boils down to the fact that in our timeline many classes such as Warlock, sorcerer and favored soul do not exist, they've essentially been house rules in to the timeline since the mechanics are there...likewise, since Elistraee exist in our server it follows that our house rules have accepted 2e+ lore that she existed in the 1e timeline. By accepting this retcon to 1e lore we should also accept the existence of Drow settlements on the surface (since it is touted to the Elisraee retcon in 2e).

I wasn't around when there were apparently some major OOC issues with Drow surface raids/pvp/whatever which lead to the current status quo of requiring DM approval, but it appears from an outside perspective to be a situation where DMs feel the need to monitor/moderate player behavior/rp in this instance based on experience from past issues. As was said, perhaps not the best solution, but probably the easiest since it discourages a particular rp that may at some point lead to pvp drama. Many players won't bother with attempting to meet such difficult/arbitrary requirements and those that do are showing such a strong rp commitment that it's unlikely they would jeopardize their months/years of rp by rule breaking or otherwise causing trouble.

[Planehopper]

It is my understanding that part of the OOC rules created to keep drow from living on the surface is the OOC inability to have NPCs react to these PCs the way they should in this setting.

It isn't necessary to debate what should be, or to get into a who-knows-lore-best battle, because all of that is only partially relevant for our particular server. Player RP (long, dedicated RP) has dictated that in this region, during this time, the overwhelming feeling by NPCS (in general) and the rulers of these realms is that "Tolerance is Treason". That being the case, surface drow should not be able to use most merchants, quest NPCs, get past gate guards, etc. Until that is possible, it is going to be hard for the DM team to ok everyone who asks. The average person in our setting (even NPC adventurers I would guess), in our timeline, regardless of what you read in a lore source or wish were the case, they are going to hate and fear the drow, and likely have a bit of fear about being accused of or known to associate with them.

It was only a few years ago that Dukes were hanging folks for supporting, aiding, or consorting with drow.

[Apple]

I guess nobody is saying that drow should happily walk everywhere in the surface, but if an Eilistraeen want to dance under the moonlight or a Vhaeraunite want to set a weave, they should be able to do so, even encouraged to do so... surely not punished. That's good RP and lore-wise. Contrary, a random Lolthite shouldn't go in the surface. I don't get why all drow are treated the same in this melting pot when they shouldn't be. (I'm talking about the rules, stop explaining why the water is wet 101)

[Steve]

In the past, 9 out of 10 Drow-on-the-Surface ended up at the FAI campfire.

Essentially, it boils down to Player-needs-attention and uses the more powerful ECL Drow to troll weaker Surface builds/Characters.

It was past shenanigans of this sort that made the "wall" between Underdark/Surface so impenetrable. However, from the past until now, those Players that DID make an envestment in RP to create non-shenanigan reasons to bring their Drow to the Surface, were granted the right.

[Planehopper]

It sort of feels like you are conflating IC and OOC actions here.

If an Eillistraeen or a Vhaeraunite want to travel to the surface IC, they have that ability here to do so IC.

The only barriers to that are OOC regulations of the same due to the OOC restrictions of NPC reactions. DMs can not be everywhere at once and, unfortunately, the AI in this game is fairly basic. Therefore, interaction is monitored/regulated. This is an OOC function.

I don't get why all drow are treated the same in this melting pot when they shouldn't be.

I don't know if this is referring to OOC or IC?

IC, they are treated the same because they are viewed the same by all but an enormously tiny percentage of percentage of the population. Even more so in our setting, in our timeline, because of significant amounts of RP that took place ensuring that the populous not only fears the drow, but also fears any accusations of consorting with, aiding, or otherwise tolerating their presence. They are not only evil, dangerous foes.. supporting them is treasonous to the realm (at least so far as the lands under BG control and her allies).

OOC they are treated the same because of what is mentioned above. NPCs cant react as they should, so DMs have to manually react. DMs cant be everywhere. It therefore becomes a sticky pile to deal with.

[Apple]

Really? Thought it was pretty clear I was referring OOC, specifically on forums and rules

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[Planehopper]

Then just feel free to read the responses to the OOC concerns.

[Apple]

I did, but it has nothing to do with what I said.