Harper Agent Prc...Changes? Reqs./CL progression/Feats/Name

[Steve]

What you said about the sub-factions and different cells is true. Imagine though, if subfactions of the Harpers, the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, Candlekeep etc happened on BG. Would that be a good thing?

No, I don't think it is necessarily a good thing, and I am semi-aware of the drama of the 2 Harper factions thingymabob. But I also don't like too many OOC hoops in place to prevent Players from enacting their RP, and worse, denying mechanics because of OOC decisions to allow for RP.

Yeah, it gets real twisted right quick!

@K:
Well, considering this is a Suggestion issue, whether HA should have more/less reqs., I myself find it pertinent to outline the PrC, not just in mechanics issues, but also in "use" issues, particularly to RP (if that seems fitting). Unless, of course, the Suggestions thread is for mechanics only issues, and things related to RP discussion/suggestion should be a DM/Staff issue, only.

Though, your suggestion ( ) to write up a "how Harpers work" in Tips and Tricks sounds like a nice idea.

[thids]

If this class is open to all, why is it still called harper agent instead of some generic name? Talk about double standards.

[mrm3ntalist]

If this class is open to all, why is it still called harper agent instead of some generic name? Talk about double standards.

Which is the other standard?

[kleomenes]

I suspect that's because the feats are divine linked thids. Zhentarim Spy and neverwinter nine are the others that have changed and as far as I understand they have no special abilities beyond having very specific skill sets not intrinsically linked to their lore faction (nwn9 really good at guarding; zs really good at disguises)

It is another way to approach harper agent though right? Remove the harperness. It would need new feats though (or just call it...champion of freedom, or something?)

[mumble]

Application only as a req? It's not so different than Red Wizard of Thay and Thayan Knight PrC's. Except maybe in raw power.

[thids]

The standard of giving faction specific prc's generic names when players of that faction disagree with the staff deciding on who gets to be the member, and who doesn't. As was the case with Zhentarim spy/ "master of disguises". I just figured that was standard practice, but now that I think about it, it's more likely to just be another case of zhentarim abuse and not standard at all. Of course the class was butchered mechanically back when the staff thought it would go in as a zhentarim related class, which is why it's in a desperate need of a rework now.

[Steve]

What's in a name?!?

But conversely, if Harper Agent would be a App Only PrC—for sake of argument—would it also be that to BE a Harper, it is required to have the PrC in the build?!?

Anyway, for sake of keeping the flames low on this issue, I'm basically pleased we can all agree to see Negotiator become the only Requisite, and start there.

If QC gets bored or something and wants to start up its own thread on (Harper) Agent upgrades/downgrades, then let that happen as it will.

Cheers.

[thids]

It is another way to approach harper agent though right? Remove the harperness. It would need new feats though (or just call it...champion of freedom, or something?)

No, that's a bad approach. I don't want less Forgotten Realms specific prc's, especially faction related ones, I want more of them. I want equal treatment for others, and more effort to implement faction specific classes for lore specific factions, instead of doing what was done to Zhentarim Spy just because the players and the staff didn't see eye to eye.

[mrm3ntalist]

If this class is open to all, why is it still called harper agent instead of some generic name? Talk about double standards.

Its not the same with master of disguises though, is it? Harper Agent was there to begin with, while MoD was a new class, therefore the team had all option open.

With that said, i as well would prefer if HA was app only ( like the RW ) and the Zhentarim Spy was implemented like pnp with its original title and it being app only as well.

[Ariella]

It is another way to approach harper agent though right? Remove the harperness. It would need new feats though (or just call it...champion of freedom, or something?)

I think that is the best option, Less the local harper guild is going to let DM's determine their members. Not to mention the fact that people are already using it so to change it now to app only would be rocking a boat that don't need rocking. Also never been a big fan of app only classes they receive such little play for the most part.

It seems everyone can agree with a feat change, Change the feat and name should be a relatively quick QC discussion, even quicker change for a builder.

[Ariella]

The classes name is quite relevant to re-balancing the requirements, As it speaks to the lore requirements of the class and whether or not they needed to be heeded to. If we change the requirements now while the name remains the same then technically going of the source book it has Negotiator. However if we change the name then we could be free to select a new requirement feat.

[Steve]

I changed the Title of this post to reflect some of the issues brought up after the pre-req question/issue. I think that is settled—removed the Alertness/Iron Will reqs. and replace with PnP req. of Negotiator.

Issues still on the table, worthwhile for discussion (as long as you're nice about it!!! )

• - Name (keep it Harper Agent and all that that associates/entails for RP, or, possibly change to Champion of Woodsy Freedom!)
  - Give Harper Agent PrC kits
  - CL progression (keep at 4/5 or go for 5/5, since it may be argued to be not-on-par with many other 5 level PrCs).
  - Feats (how to best upgrade/change the PrC specific Feats to either match PnP listing, or, to better match the NWN2 available spells/feats...and what is worthwhile for BGTSCC).

As per the Suggestion threads use, giving suggestions—and not arguing against others'—may help QC take tally of the PrC, and take the testing part into their private lair of secret secretness.

Cheers!

[metaquad4]

Name: Vanguard or Wanderer.
Niche: A jack of all trades PRC with an emphasis on scouting (perhaps for an army, a guild, or for private parties) and/or living as a nomad (living between cities, the wild, or even between civilizations).
CL Progression: 4/5.
Song Progression: Allow for if present aka if one has levels in Bard (?).
Requirements:
Remove feat and alignment requirements, keep skill requirements.

Feats:
Harper Knowledge: Change to Traveler's Knowledge. Keep functionality as is. Mention in the flavor text something about it representing the knowledge picked up by travels to different lands.

Gain Track at level 1.

Deneir's Eye: Change to Keen Gaze. Change functionality to: +3 vs traps, +3 search, and low light vision.

Lliira's Heart: Change to Wandering Mind. Keep functionality as is.

Tymora's Smile: Change to Lucky Soul. Change functionality to: The user gains +3 universal saves.

Lurue's Voice: Change to Wild Empathy. Change functionality to: The user gains the animal language.

Mystra's Boon: Change to Anti-Magic Guard. Keep functionality as is.

[thids]

I repeat, why would we ruin yet another original Forgotten Realms class, and replace it with generic stuff? Because other solutions require more work?

I'm quite certain that between us here we could come up with a reasonable and non-immersion breaking solution to the name issue, if the class is to remain open to everyone.

So the question is: "Why is someone who has levels of HA not a HA until/unless they are accepted into the guild?"

Maybe a simple note on top of the class description in character creation in big red letters saying "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RP A HARPER AGENT UNLESS YOUR CHARACTER IS A MEMBER OF SAID PLAYER GUILD" would do? But that leaves a loophole in the "play your character sheet" rule, so that would need to be addressed by the staff.

[Ariella]

Other lore based PrC's with factions have applications that almost always guarantee the party entry into that faction. The church is just as secretive as the harpers lore wise if not more so.

Personally i think it should ideally be up to the Harpers, If they are willing to accept people based on an application. Make it application only keep the name and rework it. If they don't want to (and that's fine to) then change the name and make it inclusive. There is no need to rework the Rules for just this one PrC.

Lurue's Voice: Change to Wild Empathy. Change functionality to: The user gains the animal language.

I would say a bonus to survival instead to go with the Track, Also because speaking to animals is a bit iffy when rped.

Other then that i like the suggestion, Kinda looks like an adventure class.