Harper Agent Prc...Changes? Reqs./CL progression/Feats/Name

[Steve]

So, does Harper Agent on BGTSCC require Iron Will and Alertness, or has it been adjusted to be more like the what I'm assuming is the Canon version, which requires only Negotiator feat?

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html

Any thoughts on adjusting the PrC?

[Ariella]

Not that this is the forum for suggestions but i totally agree. To heavy on the feat requirements for a class that offers very little.

[Steve]

Well then! Let's just move this over to the Suggestions thread, shall we?

Moderators, can you please assist in this?

[Steve]

*bump*

So, who's with me in having Harper Agent get back to its roots and only require Negotiator as a requisite feat (and NOT Alertness + Iron Will) ?

[Rudolph]

I'm your huckleberry. I dismissed the class twice from a build concept because of the many feat requirements. Either reduce this requirement as you specify, I say, or at least make all levels progress the spellcasting.

[kleomenes]

I guess they are easier than the RP requirement of good standing with the Master Harpers!

I'd support this, the current feat requirements are steep for a class that isn't that great except to very specific builds.

(I mean it would be nice to see full caster progression too or something done with the more useless abilities, namely Lurue's Voice and Tymora's Smile, but that is a bit off topic)

[Steve]

If it seems warranted, we can open this up to a general HA suggestions.

@BigK:
Related to Harper's as a structured Guild of Canon Lore, would making HA DM approval only make sense?

What ideas are there to improve the HA PrC specific feats?

[Endelyon]

I think there was a project in the works at one point to make like 5 different "versions" of Harper Agents, probably distributed through class kits.

I haven't heard anything about it in a while though so I doubt there's been any solid development in this area , but it's definitely a PRC that deserves some love. I'm curious to hear what people come up with.

[mrm3ntalist]

What ideas are there to improve the HA PrC specific feats?

- Make the only prereq the negotiator feat

- I would prefer if the class was app only but since many already have it, we could leave the default class as is.

Then the following kits can be implemented, app only or not
- http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html
- http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html
- http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html
- http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/har ... index.html

They are all level5 prcs, so they can be implemented as class kits. First level is teh same for all, then depending the path you choose at level1 you get the appropriate levels.

[kleomenes]

Well, M3nt's post got me pretty excited. I wanted to post about the various different harper classes, and he's suggesting that by way of kits (which is clever!)

And seeing Harper Paragon on that list made me happy

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On making it application only its a class that has an RP "hurdle" in terms of approval of the High Harpers. But it also has a need for lore understanding. The Harpers are one of the most poorly understood factions, I find, among roleplayers (I include myself when I started here) as they do not have direct analogues in other settings. They are very FR specific, and very incohesive/diverse. Often the faction is pigeon holed where it shouldn't be. So there is a case for app only Harper Agents as a means of directing people to swat up on some lore.

However, many people already have the class and its definitely a slippery slope. There are a ton of classes that have RP aspects, and lore aspects. Where would it stop? You can make a case for monk, druid, and paladin all having similar lore requirements and RP hurdles, and those are base classes.

Myself I'd say its probably more trouble than its worth.

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Seems everyone thinks the feat tax is a bit much.

As the class stands now, the two feats that stand out as useless are Lurue's Voice and Tymora's Smile

I'm not sure how to improve Lurue's Voice. The DC is terrible, as its based on class level. Perhaps basing it on something else (perhaps even just character level?) would be better? As it is, its about 50/50 to be able to befriend a deer despite being level 30. I suppose there's RP power in being able to "talk to animals" though. (Yes, I did keep on thinking of Dr Doolittle when RPing Lurue's voice on Ameris)

Tymora's Smile is a nice save bonus but just too short in duration and so hard to use. More uses or longer duration might help. Making it a free action might help. Making it perhaps something directly applicable to combat but keeping the short duration might help (say +1 dodge AC, that you can pop before a fight)

I assume if kits were put in they could circumvent all this.

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For a bit of qualitative feedback, even with the feat requirements the class was very useful to Ameris, giving access to tumble and listen without losing too much caster level (don't get me wrong, I did feel the feat requirements!). For the record his mix is cleric 11, heirophant 6, harper agent 5, fighter 8. He is still not CL 30, in fact only CL 28 (I didn't find dispelling much of a problem though while he was being played).

But it seems strange to me that harper agent was useful to a melee cleric for skills, and yet when I've tried to see how it would be useful for, you know...a bard...I draw a blank.

[DM Hera]

I agree with almost everything mrm3ntalist wrote. I am quite a fan of making the PRC easier however I do feel there are other PRC's in much more need of support then Harper which should be taken more for RP consideration in my view then grindyness for builds.

I find the kits as written way to powerful (a bonus every level! wow!) but it be cool to make them APP so they belong to the Harper rather then an interesting way to build a latest concept with no to little rp connection.

However, If the feats are reduced I would like to see the skills needed remain the same or increased.

Other then that, more options, better game.




This is my personal feeling! and no one else

[mrm3ntalist]

I am quite a fan of making the PRC easier however I do feel there are other PRC's in much more need of support then Harper...

This is true, that is why after the barbarian changes, the QC currently works on Swashbuckler and GhostFacedKiller. Other classes and PRCs will follow.

[Steve]

What I still find unanswerable—and maybe others have it but have kept it all locked up secret like—is whether Harper Agents can/could act "outside" the Harper faction governance. Or, being a "secret agent" like PrC, could it be the goal of the Character to even deny being a Harper, while at the same time, being a Harper?!?

I ask because on the Forgotten Realms, there are plenty of things going on in the entire Realms which are beyond the knowledge and oversight of our small Sword Coast, even smaller region of Baldur's Gate. And thus, could it not be that a Harper sub-faction exists somewhere, outside of the Player run Harpers of this BGTSCC world?

I say this only on the aspect of "permission" to be a Harper, which could be taken as an OOC denial of any single Player, by either Staff or other Players that run the Guild. Just as, say, a Player may become a Red Wizard of Thay WITHOUT being in the Red Wizards of Thay Baldur's Gate player-run Guild, right? That is possible, right?

Personally, I even see it more interesting, if two Harpers meet in the night, not knowing each is a Harper, yet sharing similar goals (that go along with the RP of the PrC).

But then again, we must ask: to what extreme or moderate levels to we hold Players to RP too?

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Well, I'm glad there is a consensus on changing the reqs. to just Negotiator. And, the kits are cool, but maybe something to address down the line (the feat reqs. could be changed rather soon, I'd hope). I still think it should be a 4/5 spell progression PrC (follows PnP).

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Here's my suggestions for some changes:

Deneir's Eye = no change
Lliira's Heart = no change
Tymora's Smile = change to 3/day (total 15 minutes of +2 saves per rest)
Lurue's Voice = Grant Speak with Animals spell, casting 3/day
Mystra's Boon = no change

[mrm3ntalist]

What I still find unanswerable—and maybe others have it but have kept it all locked up secret like—is whether Harper Agents can/could act "outside" the Harper faction governance. Or, being a "secret agent" like PrC, could it be the goal of the Character to even deny being a Harper, while at the same time, being a Harper?!?

I ask because on the Forgotten Realms, there are plenty of things going on in the entire Realms which are beyond the knowledge and oversight of our small Sword Coast, even smaller region of Baldur's Gate. And thus, could it not be that a Harper sub-faction exists somewhere, outside of the Player run Harpers of this BGTSCC world?

I say this only on the aspect of "permission" to be a Harper, which could be taken as an OOC denial of any single Player, by either Staff or other Players that run the Guild. Just as, say, a Player may become a Red Wizard of Thay WITHOUT being in the Red Wizards of Thay Baldur's Gate player-run Guild, right? That is possible, right?

Personally, I even see it more interesting, if two Harpers meet in the night, not knowing each is a Harper, yet sharing similar goals (that go along with the RP of the PrC).

But then again, we must ask: to what extreme or moderate levels to we hold Players to RP too?

Thats a slippery slope. HA is open for everyone currently. There was a time that there were two other guilds RPing as harpers which caused all kinds of funny situations. Both IC and OOC.

What you said about the sub-factions and different cells is true. Imagine though, if subfactions of the Harpers, the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, Candlekeep etc happened on BG. Would that be a good thing?

In a big fantasy FR world with thousands of people, that would work. On a PW though, i dont think it will. It will only cause problems.

[kleomenes]

What I still find unanswerable—and maybe others have it but have kept it all locked up secret like—is whether Harper Agents can/could act "outside" the Harper faction governance. Or, being a "secret agent" like PrC, could it be the goal of the Character to even deny being a Harper, while at the same time, being a Harper?!?

I ask because on the Forgotten Realms, there are plenty of things going on in the entire Realms which are beyond the knowledge and oversight of our small Sword Coast, even smaller region of Baldur's Gate. And thus, could it not be that a Harper sub-faction exists somewhere, outside of the Player run Harpers of this BGTSCC world?

I say this only on the aspect of "permission" to be a Harper, which could be taken as an OOC denial of any single Player, by either Staff or other Players that run the Guild. Just as, say, a Player may become a Red Wizard of Thay WITHOUT being in the Red Wizards of Thay Baldur's Gate player-run Guild, right? That is possible, right?

Personally, I even see it more interesting, if two Harpers meet in the night, not knowing each is a Harper, yet sharing similar goals (that go along with the RP of the PrC).

But then again, we must ask: to what extreme or moderate levels to we hold Players to RP too?

I suspect "how the Harpers work" in lore is more a topic for tips and tricks. Happy to give feedback there if you want to move the discussion there! I am just conscious that there are rules on discussion here expressly to avoid a back and forth on things like this