Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Rasael wrote:Not sure what this means? You can already wield the longsword one-handedly. You get a 1.5 damage modifier because you have nothing in your off-hand, so the game assumes you're wielding it with two hands. But it works with the one-hander feat, if my memory about that is correct.

I imagined, perhaps wrongly, that the one-handed sword wielding was the goal, so they have one free hand to cast spells with (and thus something would have to be made, some special invisible off-hand item maybe) so that the character wields a longsword with one hand.

The Whistler wrote:Gishes are never gonna be able to pile as much damage, or AB as a divine character. Furthermore, they are vulnerable to breaches regardless of their CL. I don't see what the fuss is about.

The fuss is about:
- High BAB and Full spellcasting. We dont normally do that
- 0ASF for light armor.
- 3 bonus feats ( they are too much for a 10lvlPRC that gives so much. It basically cancels the prereq feats
- One extra permanent attack ( as if in haste )

I expect such PRC to be ehavily nerfed before going in game.

Let's not forget free auto-quickened spells.

Flasmix wrote:Let's not forget free auto-quickened spells.

Also not forget feeing up 3 epic feats (Auto still 3/6/9) for something else whilst still able to cast your full spell book in an AC6 armour (Mithral chainmail).

BigJ wrote:

Flasmix wrote:Let's not forget free auto-quickened spells.

Also not forget feeing up 3 epic feats (Auto still 3/6/9) for something else whilst still able to cast your full spell book in an AC6 armour (Mithral chainmail).

Forget the Mithral Chainmail, Mithral Breastplate is where it's at.

Flasmix wrote:This class seems stupidly OP. It has so many perks and almost zero downfalls.

Double.

When I looked at 4+int mod then saw Bluff (why?), preform, spell craft and then tumble all as class skills! Will this class fail a save with its high will and reflex, or its bonuses out Ac.


The very lore says a blend a of magic and sword play. Why would it have high attack. It is not a dedicated weapon master so this should be the reason for no more then medium attack.

With that same thought why does it have full caster progression. It's a blend of the skills and is not a master caster either.


This is only my cursory review but I am always for more classes and prcs.


I like the lore behind blade singers. I like the story and the mystic and would think it be fantastic to see in the game. Though the proposal makes it a must not an interest. I also further disagree with the good only aspect of the class. Elves are capable of evil more heinous then almost any other race on faerun. A blade singer who over time has given in to the darkness with in their heart and the use of thier power could lead to a zealotry that would make the ancestors weep.


Anyways. A good starting point but is well beyond balanced and to far from lore for me as is.

Flasmix wrote: Forget the Mithral Chainmail, Mithral Breastplate is where it's at.

True, although a STR build will like the 14 starting dex + 4 cats grace leaving points for STR / longsword that a mith chainmail brings (frees up a feat as well, dont need weapon finesse). It also helped highlight a point re BG's bespoke armour changes, AC6 use to be heavy armour only before BG's armour changes.

Heavy armour, whilst still able to use two feats from other classes that are normally lost when they wear armour (Monk / flurry of blows, IB / Unfettered defence)

BigJ

mrm3ntalist wrote:

The Whistler wrote:Gishes are never gonna be able to pile as much damage, or AB as a divine character. Furthermore, they are vulnerable to breaches regardless of their CL. I don't see what the fuss is about.

The fuss is about:
- High BAB and Full spellcasting. We dont normally do that
- 0ASF for light armor.
- 3 bonus feats ( they are too much for a 10lvlPRC that gives so much. It basically cancels the prereq feats
- One extra permanent attack ( as if in haste )

I expect such PRC to be ehavily nerfed before going in game.

I'd say give the class staggered spellcasting progression, but gishes already struggle to scrounge up 27-8 CL as it is.

Armored spellcasting is a core theme of the class. So they'll have 5 AC more over other spellcasters, so what ? PMs get 6 more lol.

I agree on the extra feats, they could use some pruning. Or alternatively give them fixed feats, like Kaedrin did in his version of the class.

Gish damage is pathetic, an extra attack per round would really help in that department. Most gishes can already permahaste themselves, so if it doesn't stack with haste I don't see an issue with it.

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/bla ... index.html

We could actually institute it as base PnP, it'd be fine imo.

Brackets at the bottom of feat descriptions contain a TLDR for how it could be implemented into NWN2.

A note about alignment: Even the Tomb and Blood variate didn't have an alignment requirement. The Tomb and Blood version was the one with the bonus feats. Also, the bonus feats were limited to metamagic OR a choice of: Improved Critical (Longsword, as the rendition required Weapon Focus: Longsword), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack. (Omitted the none nwn2 choices)

Good suggestion metaquad. I think this would be a good place to begin with.

Even a pnp version or a nerfed version would be awesome to have.

Just please. Make it App only. Please.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Good suggestion metaquad. I think this would be a good place to begin with.

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metaquad4 wrote:http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/bla ... index.html

We could actually institute it as base PnP, it'd be fine imo.

Brackets at the bottom of feat descriptions contain a TLDR for how it could be implemented into NWN2.

A note about alignment: Even the Tomb and Blood variate didn't have an alignment requirement. The Tomb and Blood version was the one with the bonus feats, but it had its own spellbook (like blackguard/assassin). Also, the bonus feats were limited to metamagic OR a choice of: Improved Critical (Longsword, as the rendition required Weapon Focus: Longsword), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack. (Omitted the none nwn2 choices)

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Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Race: Half-Elf or Elf
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks , Perform 4 ranks , Tumble 2 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting , Combat Expertise , Dodge , Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier)
Spells: Able to cast arcane spells of 1st level.

Hit-Dice: d8

Base Attack Bonus: High

Saves: Fort (Low), Reflex (High), Will (High)

Skill Points: 2 + Int

Skills: Concentration, Lore: Arcana, Perform, Spellcraft, Tumble

Spells per Day: At every oddnumbered level gained in the bladesinger class, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class be fore becoming a bladesinger, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. (5/10 Casting on every odd level)

Bladesong Style (Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to his class level, up to a maximum of her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. (Gains INT-to-AC when using light or no armor and wielding a longsword or rapier in a single hand with no off-hand)

Lesser Spellsong (Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger of 2nd level or higher can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively. (Take 10 on concentration checks to cast while being attacked)

Song of Celerity (Ex): Once per day, a bladesinger of 4th level or higher may quicken a single spell of up to 2nd level, as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment to the spell’s effective level or casting time. She may only use this ability when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other). At 8th level and higher, she can quicken a single spell of up to 4th level. (Level 4: Autoquicken 0-2, Level 8: Autoquicken 0-4)

Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 6th level or higher ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor. (Can Wear Light Armor without an Arcane Spell Faliure)

Song of Fury (Ex): When a 10th-level bladesinger makes a full attack with a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), she can make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack and each other attack made in that round take a –2 penalty. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the bladesinger might make before her next action. (Can make 1 extra attack when single-wielding a rapier or a longsword with no offhand at -2 AB, Gain Multiattack [Possibly remove the Multiattack benefit])

I think it's still a bit too strong. Bladesong style is potentially +10 ac on top of light armor.

I don't see any reason to make it application only.

Without uncanny dodge that ac isn't the best and getting UD would give you a low caster level. But you may be right 10 is too much. I'd have to compare it to a druid's AC or something.

If its going to be app only, we shouldn't even consider adding it yet. We should focus on:
1) None app only, none racial/deity bound classes first
2) None app only, racial/deity bound classes second
3) App only, none racial/deity bound classes third
4) App only, racial/deity bound classes forth

This priority list allows us to first focus on classes that will be used by a wider audience, then as we fill in our priorities we can focus on classes that not as many people will be able to use.

So, if bladesinger is going to be app only, it really needs to be shot down to the lowest end of that list.

For all you who want it app only, if its for mechanical reasons, we really should nerf it to put it in line with stuff that isn't app only.

For all you who want it to be app only, if its for lore reasons, please display (with evidence from cannon sources) how it is more RP intensive than a paladin, a warlock, a cleric, a harper agent etc. Not to mention some of the custom classes of specific institutions we have (like Daggerspell Mage). Prove that it is as intensive as is said here.

With the 10 AC, bear in mind (going off my proposal):
With the dispel fix, 5/10 casting is going to seriously hurt it.
Gishes don't have the best damage anyway.
We can also reduce the auto-quicken to auto-quicken 0-1 at level 4 and auto-quicken 0-2 at level 8. Imo, even 0-4 won't be too op but if it it, we can reduce it.

It'll be like dwarven defender, but for gishes, from how I envision it. A very potent defensive class, but it won't really help your offense that much (haste covers that extra attack, and most gishes keep haste up anyway). Plus, plenty of the end-game mobs have breaches, mords, and greater dispels and are more than willing to toss them in your face.

Ideally, you'd go 5 Wizard/5 Dragonslayer/10 Bladesinger/10 Eldrich Knight (unless someone can come up with something better).

The first one is really skint on feats, and will net you 26 (5+3+5+9+4) CL. It'll actually be pretty decent, though it'll be crummy if you want a feat for something other than requirements and it'll have poor spell progression as you level. Its damage will be ok, nothing to laugh at due to the lack of damage boosting spells in the wizard spell list (and the rarity of elemental weapons, most of which add 1d6 at the most). With +11 STR (Buffed, ofc) and a relatively min-maxed build with a 1d6 elemental weapon and a flame weapon wand, I ended up theory-crafting that it would strike for roughly 28.5 damage per hit with a mid-40s AB. Its AC will be very high, it will be vulnerable to breaches (being a wizard) and weak-ish against mords. Its AB will be decent, and its damage will be sub par. Hence, it will play a tank role in the party more than a damage role.

There is nothing wrong with having tanky characters. Instead of narrowing into just the AC, I'd focus on its other capacities it needs to fulfill as a melee as well. In some ways, its a "reverse EDM favored soul". It has a ton of AC and damage mitigating abilities, but it falls short when it comes to damage (unlike a favored soul, who has relatively fewer damage mitigation tools, but can output a ton of damage. And heal.).

This rendition isn't that bad at all. It doesn't have the power (which should never be a reason for App Only anyway), nore the heavy lore background that would require it be app only.

We currently have a few app only classes:

Red Wizards & Thayan Knights both belong to a specific guild. That said, I would argue their app only status due to the fact that several other classes (Daggerspell Mage and Harper Agent, to name a couple) both belong to specific organizations and neither are app only. Though, the Red Wizards are more active that the other various organizations that these other classes represent, so that could be part of it too.

Shadow Adepts are app only, for a very good reason. That is, the Shadow Weave is not public knowledge as of yet in this timeline and Shadow Adepts are the only ones who wield it (with Shar's permission). The DM team needs to know that they players who play Shadow Adepts are both familiar with this, and are aware that there will be very real IG consequences to both using the Shadow Weave and attempting to speak about it.

This class fits into neither category.

metaquad4 wrote:If its going to be app only, we shouldn't even consider adding it yet. We should focus on:
1) None app only, none racial/deity bound classes first
2) None app only, racial/deity bound classes second
3) App only, none racial/deity bound classes third
4) App only, racial/deity bound classes forth

I disagree with this list of priorities. There are more than enough generic, open-to-everyone, classes on this server. Filling the PrC and class list with even more bland generic classes with little ties to the lore of the setting makes the server itself feel more bland. If anything, implementing classes like the bladesinger should take priority over classes like solar channeler. The bg list of classes covers most concepts well enough, except maybe a divine sneak. We should focus on adding classes and content which enrich the setting.