K'yon Oblodra wrote:Let's give him an arrow rain, that deals Aoe or a maiming shot that slows, or a bleeding/poison shot, heck even a knock back (repulsive shot)
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Ranger has some "reserve/arrow/spells" and those could be given to the PRC if requested and even in place of the massive criticals or Ki Damage.
K'yon Oblodra wrote:You know I didn't mean any offense, just thought it was odd and thought about ways to help the class and your idea.
And none was taken, just trying to encourage you to go into details.
K'yon Oblodra wrote:Point Blank Shot or what it's called takes care of the attacks of opportunity.
Point Blank Shot gives +1 damage and negates -4 AB penalty - however - it still does not turn off the attacks of opportunity you suffer from making ranged attacks in melee. Which is why most ranged mobs either switch to melee weapons or they are more easily taken out.
K'yon Oblodra wrote:So you had a hybrid build in mind? Still feels a bit counterintuitive to build a Prestige Class that usually has a clear long range background as a type of skirmisher. I mean one could combine these styles with multiple classes but in one prc it feels a bit strange. But then again it is your class idea so whatever floats your boat... Just trying to give you my thoughts... I like your effort for a new class and that it's not having any magical shenanigans it just doesn't feel very cohesive to me.
Another build idea you could make use of this PRC is actually a Zen Archery based Fighter 10/Master Archer 10/Divine Champion 10 or Fighter 12/Master Archer 10/Divine CHampion 8, Divine Wrath now has a timer instead of just one use per rest and you could go for the Combat Focus line of feats to get combined 9 AB and damage with the former or +7 AB and damage with the latter. You just need to have enough dexterity for Manyshot, 17, and you can easily make use for medium or heavy armor for AC. The Divine Champion bonus feats do allow you to get Great Wisdom feats, so Divine champion can basically give you +4 Wisdom on top of the increased saves.
AC81 wrote:Yes, many shot works with xbows and yes, xbow sniper damage definitely multiplies on crits. The way to build with this prc would be to include as much crit damage as possible. Eg, fighter feats, ranger favoured enemy, AA damage bonus, etc.
Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness for Massive Criticals instead of elemental damage - but the thing is... It is still a ten level PRC - and you cannot have it all - but you would have multiple build concepts to work with. For example, for most amount of damage an Arcane Archer requires that dip of bard, and fighter, which leaves out the possibility for you to go with Ranger/AK/WoD/Divine Champion/ETC... And those classes provide damage that would exist even against critical hit immunities and help you overcome the DRs of 10/- and 20/-.
AC81 wrote:You can't really compare this to a melee weapon master because to maximise damage they have to 2-H and be on the front lines. Archers can do that from relative safety. They usually also have the option of HiPS, namely the assassin manyshot abuse, I don't see many (any?) melee weapon master/FB that have the luxury of throwing HiPS into a build plan.
Where they once again have the clear advantage thanks to Supreme Cleave. Every killed opponent could land you another critical hit if not two, and yet another two chances for more critical hits. This is something the archers cannot do, they not have the ability to just cleave away entire groups of monsters.
As for HiPS, if Archers want this Master Archer and HiPS class, then they have given up one source damage that could have boosted their ranged critical hits or provided extra damage against mobs with critical hit immunity or large amounts of DR. The ability to HiPS will give defensive advantage, but not without a cost to bear. It would be easy to argue how any ranged character with Assassin would be better off with some other PRC just due to the issue presented by DR and critical hit immunity.
Then finally, you can still make those "Fighter 14/Frenzied Berserker 5/Weapon Master 7/Shadowdancer 4" builds - all you have to do is use a +2 dexterity race. Thiefling is one, all elves but Sun Elves are another, then you got Halflings, and Svirfneblin, and finally even the Air Genasi. Thus, you start with 18 dexterity and just increase it by 1 on a level up. For example a Thiefling could start with the following ability scores:
Code: Select all
STR: 16 +6 (Level up) +4 (Strength Belt) +2 or +4 (Great Strength feats)
DEX: 18 +1 (Level up)
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 6
You are not exactly falling far behind from the Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master benchmark set by any Human Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master, especially since the dispel fix has reduced the benefits acquired from having UMD as a class skill. Moreover, considering how you can have 22 dexterity with +3 dexterity item, your Hide and Move Silently skills are only about 4 points lower than what a 'real sneak' has with 30 dexterity. That is with the presumption that both of you wear the same sneak equipment...
Hipsing Frenzied Weapon Master is a solid build, the server population as whole just has not caught up with the idea yet. Things take time.
AC81 wrote:Caster builds? Who cares whether they are capable of casting? Their primary form of offence for all those I listed would be ranged. And I'd hardly classify something with 8 levels of assassin as a caster!
Before the dispel fix that 8 level assassin could cast Ghostly Visage, Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, False Life, Improved Invisibility (50% Concealment), Freedom of Movement, and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance for that boost with detection skills. They still can do it, it is just that caster mobs today tend to dispel them.
And yes, I think there is an issue to highlight. Most ranged builds are build around levels of caster classes - or then they have heavily invested into sneak attack dice. It is either one or the second, if not both in some cases. I feel there is just not that much variation for the non-spellcasting sneak.
What can you do beyond a Fighter with one or three PRCs from the following list: Divine Champion, Warrior of Darkness/Anointed Knight, Dragon Warrior, and Elemental Archer. (Order of the Bow Initiate just feels like a long range sneak attack class for me, and it is currently broken...) So if we roleplay our characters sheets, we end up with bunch of divinely blessed oil spilling dragon enthusiast/elemental savants... Hence I believe that this is where the Master Archer PRC would find its niche - as nothing more than a 'mundane' master of the bow or some other ranged weapon. I think it would even work well with the Hunter base class if it is ever finished and pushed out.
AC81 wrote:On a positive note, I actually really enjoy reading all your suggestions Comments, I happen to think you're very knowledgable but I just don't agree this class needs to happen, at least not in this form. I'd rather we spend our energies fixing OOBI or implementing a non-divine ranged class like hunter.
And I would say the same back to you. This is a big game and there are many things one might disagree with someone else.