Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Mealir has gold but by no mean a mountain of gold, "But without that mountain of gold to spare, most of the things you can do with UMD are just not worth it" this is just plain false. You use UMD whne you're not likely to get dispelled, that's it.

And there are so few dispels in the server now ...

Well, one loot run with a level 15 character selling everything to Thunderhammer can earn between 10-20K for Amor an hour of time. Do 2 or 3 of these and get a couple items worth 5-30k at Mudds and you can buy any 2, possibly 3 wands you want. With 50 charges and the wand recharge giving a minimum of 50 more wands last a long time.

If you don't feel they're worth it, don't use them... you'd make a lot more gold using them since you could go to more areas, gain more xp and own more chests, but if you'd rather go slow and steady there's nothing wrong with that.

Valefort wrote:And there are so few dispels in the server now ...

You are talking to a guy who has great personal dislike to Weapon Master builds for the following reasons:
1) You need to a roll right numbers to just threaten a critical hit.
2) Some creatures on the server have critical hit immunity.
3) High enough AC can also act as quasi-immunity.
4) It costs a boatload of levels and feats.

So suffice to say, with a tongue in cheek, even if there was only one dispel casting mob on the server - it alone would be a far too great source of uncertainty for my sensibilities!

chad878262 wrote:If you don't feel they're worth it, don't use them... you'd make a lot more gold using them since you could go to more areas, gain more xp and own more chests, but if you'd rather go slow and steady there's nothing wrong with that.

The added thing about using UMD is that you need to map out where and what creatures use dispels - as said by Valefor previously. It is affordable with the previously mentioned 20 gp bottles of refreshing water, but you have to map all areas one by one, and it is an effort that can get you killed in the process several times.

And yeah, I tend avoid building characters that need it as a necessary crutch. I just happened to find about five Mantles of Gram the Mouse more or less in a row - so I said: fine - I'll keep one and get enough UMD to use it.

And I cannot stress enough that you can build characters that do not require a single point of UMD or level in a class that grants spellcasting. But I cannot help but to feel that UMD should be far more useful than it currently is.

I am sorry to say this man but you write some serious bullshit.

If you want to be good with spells then play some caster.

A lvl 10 assassin with 30 CL?
You want a lvl 30 character of any kind to be dispellable in the same way. This is just plain crazy and wrong and personally I don't care what are your intentions although its almost clear reading your posts that you just want your character to be more powerful.

UMD finally works as intended. It was bugged before in a way you want it to be now. Do you really think the server staff fixed it just to roll it back to shit state just because someone cries his character gets dispelled? Or my cats grace only lasts couple of minutes and I want it to last half an hour?

So you can just keep posting this stuff nobody sane even cares about. As this will never happen.

Peace. No hard feelings.

10 level casting PrCs will always be inferior to full Casters. Additionally, the highest CL one can get is 14 with Practised...unless one can apply another PrC with Spell Progression to them.

Anyway, if BGTSCC had dispels set back to OG settings, would it be an easier situation for 10-level Casters? Maybe.

Another thing to note is, if you take a 10-level casting PrC as early as possible in the Build plan, it's CL should be equal to appropriate CR mobs until about Lvl 17–18. After that, and especially in Epics, the problems start.

Separate but related, there still is no decision to whether scrolls will be opened up to lvl 16+ CL scribing. I do wish that request would get answered. Then, UMD would get some power back to it at the upper levels use.

UMD has all the power it should have. You cast the spell with the level that is scribed/brewed etc.

Seriously. This thread demands that a spell drunk from a bottle by a farmer or cast from a scroll by a lvl 30 gardener has the same power as cast by a lvl 30 wizard from his spellbook. People wake up.

dzidek1983 wrote:I am sorry to say this man but you write some serious (#2).

I am sorry to say this man, but I do not think you understand this sentence of yours... It kind of goes against the rest of your post.

dzidek1983 wrote:If you want to be good with spells then play some caster.

And I am - have - and will. What I am pointing out how UMD is largely nothing more than garbage, in my opinion.

dzidek1983 wrote:A lvl 10 assassin with 30 CL?
You want a lvl 30 character of any kind to be dispellable in the same way. This is just plain crazy and wrong and personally I don't care what are your intentions although its almost clear reading your posts that you just want your character to be more powerful.

In PnP, reaching level 30 is not going to happen unless the DM really ups the experience rewards. It is going to require thousands if not tens of thousands of experience points per encounter. Thus, reaching level 20 is the more reasonable comparison. Thus a Paladin 20 and Fighter 10/Blackguard 10 would both have a caster level of 10. The same is true for Ranger 20 and Rogue 10/Assassin 10. Now, if you are not aware, on this server the caster level of both Paladins and Rangers is not the PnP '½' per level, but rather 1 per class level. A level 30 Ranger/Paladin has caster level of 30 instead of the stock 15 of vanilla NWN2 and PNP. That low caster level is feasible in PnP because there will be turn based based combat, and few DMs have mobs spamming dispel - or require you to kill them in the same number as you do on this server.

Now, let us have look at those Assassin and Blackguard spell books: viewtopic.php?p=647416#p647416

Level 1 Assassin Spells:
Ghost Visage, Sleep, True Strike, Detect Poison.

Level 2 Assassin Spells:
Cat's Grace, Darkness, Fox's Cunning.

Level 3 Assassin Spells:
Invisibility, Deep Slumber, False Life.

Level 4 Assissin Spells:
Improved Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Poison, and clairaudience/Clairvoyance.

Level 1 BlackGuard Spells:
Bull's Strength, Magic Weapon, Doom, and Cure Light Wounds.

Level 2 BlackGuard Spells:
Inflict Serious Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkness, Eagle's Splendor, and Death Knell.

Level 3 BlackGuard Spells:
Contagion, Cure Serious Wounds, Protection from Energy, and Summon Creature III.

Level 4 BlackGuard Spells:
Inflict Critical Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, Poison, and Freedom of Movement.

Now, look at these two spell lists, they are inferior when compared to any other spell book. What they offer is that +4 into two stats and Freedom of Movement. And these days you can actually get thsoe +4 bonuses from items so... the actual perk you get is basically just Freedom of Movement.

Now, as for buffing up my own characters, they are as follows:
Barbarian/Dragonslayer - UMD taken as a crossclass to use the cloak that was previously mentioned.
Cleric/Rogue/Hierophant - no UMD, even though I could have it.
Favored Soul/Blackguard - no UMD and I have no reason to even look at the Blackgaurd spellbook.
Sorcerer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight/Arcane Scholar - no UMD.
Ranger - no UMD.

You may not care what my intentions are - but all I am doing is pointing out the same issue I did prior to the dispel fix. It would make UMD mostly trash, and it has. You may find some use in a specific area - but that is it. Whether you can afford it is just a matter of are you sitting on top of that proverbial mountain of gold.

dzidek1983 wrote:UMD finally works as intended. It was bugged before in a way you want it to be now. Do you really think the server staff fixed it just to roll it back to (#2) state just because someone cries his character gets dispelled? Or my cats grace only lasts couple of minutes and I want it to last half an hour?

What the staff failed to do was add higher caster level UMD consumables. It is a lot of work and at best you would have been remembered as nothing more than an unsung hero for pulling it off and thus nothing did happen on that field. Also, you do not have to give one caster level per skill point in UMD, it could be UMD/2, or even 3, and it could maintain that caster level cap of 30. Or perhaps you could just have UMD capped at 25 - or whatever else.

dzidek1983 wrote:So you can just keep posting this stuff nobody sane even cares about. As this will never happen.

Argumentum ad hominem, you are not addressing merits of an argument, what you are doing is attacking the character of anyone who apparently disagrees with you. It is often done when no counter argument can be presented and there is unwillingness to admit a loss of words.

dzidek1983 wrote:UMD has all the power it should have. You cast the spell with the level that is scribed/brewed etc.

And the scriber/brewer/crafter is supposed to be able to deterime the caster level of the resulting scroll/potion/wand. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do that. Therefore Wands of Greater Magic Weapon are literally useless, among many others.

dzidek1983 wrote:Seriously. This thread demands that a spell drunk from a bottle by a farmer or cast from a scroll by a lvl 30 gardener has the same power as cast by a lvl 30 wizard from his spellbook. People wake up.

Well, it would be in accordance of what is possible in stock PnP.

dzidek1983 wrote:Peace. No hard feelings.

No hard feelings.

chambordini wrote:Bard or rogue only. Can't cross class, picture that.

UMD is a trained skill only, so you need a rank in it to use. Moreover, you can freely crossclass into it even in PnP. You just have to spend two skill points instead of one. (Able Learner is level one feat for humans only.)

Edit: The restriction you mentioned existed in 3.0, but was dropped in 3.5.

There are full CL30 consumables that don't require UMD, they just cost a lot of gold. A CL30 IMA is going to cost you a little over 3K (costs 2,700 to brew), but most players don't want to pay ~3,100 gold for a single use such as a potion, especially when a wand of IMA costs ~35,000 gold for a minimum of 100 uses (including 1 recharge, usually you can get 2 recharges on a wand). This makes the wand cost ~350 gold per charge vs. 3,000 for 1 charge. Now, the 3K for the potion makes you immune to greater dispel, but the first breach chest you open will strip it regardless of CL... Whereas the IMA wand can be readily (and cheaply) reapplied when stripped by dispel or breach.

What many players fail to consider, is the elixirs they could purchase that are not on the breach list, up to level 7 spells. Were they to do so I think there might be a bit more demand for at least some potions. And for some areas where breach/dispel is not a major concern potions like energy immunity, greater heroism and the like would certainly be more popular, but the cost being at least triple what a comaprable wand can provide just makes it unrealistic to make any player consider using them.

chad878262 wrote:they just cost a lot of gold.

The cost in gold is the primary issue with UMD.

Before the dispel fix: Scrolls, wands, potions have low caster levels and high cost, but because higher level granted you dispel immunity it excused the high cost in gold.

After the dispel fix: Scrolls, wands, potions have low caster levels and high cost, but now even a low level dispel will strip these buffs away and the high cost in gold is only excused in few particular cases. Now you could get those caster level 30 potions, but as it has been discussed before, the cost is just too much. Also, can you even brew caster level 30 Divine Power potions?

Would this be correct?

30 (Caster level) * 4 (Spell level) * 50 (Potion cost) * 0.7 (Master Alchemist Multiplier) = 4200 Gold Pieces per potion. (Does this have some kind of caster level limitation?)

I know that a strength domain cleric could brew it like this without the PRC:
7 (Caster level) * 3 (Spell level) * 50 (Cost Multiplier) = 1050

The only real difference the caster level produces is the duration of the effect. Now, with 4200 goldpieces you could buy one potion of Divine Power from a Master Alchemist, or 4 potions from that Potion Brewing Strength domain cleric. For a squishy rogue that can only take on one or two opponents at a time, the lower caster level potions are the better choice even though drinking a potion breaks stealth. Gold is not spent while you move onwards in search of the next pair of opponents. As for some high AC gish that stands in some AoE with duration, the higher caster level potion could be the better choice.

But then again, you are looking at 1050 gold coins spent to take down one or two opponents for what, 20 points of experience each? Or 4200 for the gish to take down a mob of 10 or so for total of 200 points of experience? You are going to need that proverbial, if not literal, mountain of gold to afford it.

Thus as said before, the issue is the cost, so if you cut down the craft wand/brew potion/scribe scroll costs into a tenth of what they are now, things become something far more affordable... even if these things remain just as dispellable as they currently are... you could afford to be dispelled.






Edit: So, give 10 level spellbook PRCs more caster levels, and reduce the cost UMD consumable creation.

Comments Only wrote:The cost in gold is the primary issue with UMD.

Before the dispel fix: Scrolls, wands, potions have low caster levels and high cost, but because higher level granted you dispel immunity it excused the high cost in gold.

Before the dispel fix your caster level was always your character level, so effectively every potion, scroll, wand, or spell from a 10 level PRC was CL30 once you reached max level. This was a bug and it is good that it was fixed. Further, the cost for scrolls, wands and potions has not changed at all since the dispel fix and wands are still stupidly cheap when compared to scrolls or potions.

Comments Only wrote:After the dispel fix: Scrolls, wands, potions have low caster levels and high cost, but now even a low level dispel will strip these buffs away and the high cost in gold is only excused in few particular cases. Now you could get those caster level 30 potions, but as it has been discussed before, the cost is just too much. Also, can you even brew caster level 30 Divine Power potions?

Not accurate. A wand of IMA, for instance has a CL of 11 (I think). This a Lesser Dispel (low level dispel) has a max of (d20+5 vs. DC of 11+11=22) 20% chance to dispel. Barkskin is CL12 and thus only 15% chance of being dispelled. At higher levels, they will almost surely be dispelled, but that IMA wand only costs ~350 gold per use, not exactly breaking the bank...

Regarding Divine Power Potions, I do not know if they are capped or not. The spells I have found capped are the ones that scale with level (so GMW potions can only make +4 weapons, not +5 and Deez's Repulsive Barrier can only grant 10 or 15% concealment, not 20, for example). Honestly, though your comparison is a bit of a false one:

Comments Only wrote:30 (Caster level) * 4 (Spell level) * 50 (Potion cost) * 0.7 (Master Alchemist Multiplier) = 4200 Gold Pieces per potion. (Does this have some kind of caster level limitation?)

I know that a strength domain cleric could brew it like this without the PRC:
7 (Caster level) * 3 (Spell level) * 50 (Cost Multiplier) = 1050

Master Alchemist does not HAVE to craft CL30 elixirs, they get to set the CL. So a MA without the strength domain could craft 7*4*35= 980 gold against the strength domain cleric without MA which would cost 1050. Now, if you had STR domain and MA the cost would be 7*3*35= 735 gold... So either way Master Alchemist is going to craft the potion cheaper than non-Master Alchemist. This said, I would classify such a potion as something only worthy of using against bosses, it is not feasible for grinding any more than potions of haste or displacement would be. Really the only reason you would want to pay for the higher CL is duration or dispel immunity, neither of which should be the concern with Divine Power.

There is no reason to change UMD or 10lvl PRCs. They work as they should. The dispels were tonned down in every area, making umd use very efficient.

mrm3ntalist wrote:There is no reason to change UMD or 10lvl PRCs. They work as they should. The dispels were tonned down in every area, making umd use very efficient.

This is true except in the VOD. The VOD is still the same as it ever was and this is the one dungeon that almost every build needs some UMD to traverse even in a group. There is a 100% chance on every level you will get dispelled multiple times and breached multiple times. This is not okay in my mind....yet my mind is not the one that matters! HA HA! Still though can we consider that the VOD is still a bit too high on that?

chad878262 wrote:

Comments Only wrote:The cost in gold is the primary issue with UMD.

Before the dispel fix: Scrolls, wands, potions have low caster levels and high cost, but because higher level granted you dispel immunity it excused the high cost in gold.

Before the dispel fix your caster level was always your character level, so effectively every potion, scroll, wand, or spell from a 10 level PRC was CL30 once you reached max level. This was a bug and it is good that it was fixed. Further, the cost for scrolls, wands and potions has not changed at all since the dispel fix and wands are still stupidly cheap when compared to scrolls or potions.

So... you want to say what I said again? And no, wands are not stupidly cheap, I'll get to it later.

chad878262 wrote:

Comments Only wrote:After the dispel fix: Scrolls, wands, potions have low caster levels and high cost, but now even a low level dispel will strip these buffs away and the high cost in gold is only excused in few particular cases. Now you could get those caster level 30 potions, but as it has been discussed before, the cost is just too much. Also, can you even brew caster level 30 Divine Power potions?

Not accurate. A wand of IMA, for instance has a CL of 11 (I think). This a Lesser Dispel (low level dispel) has a max of (d20+5 vs. DC of 11+11=22) 20% chance to dispel. Barkskin is CL12 and thus only 15% chance of being dispelled. At higher levels, they will almost surely be dispelled, but that IMA wand only costs ~350 gold per use, not exactly breaking the bank...

That wand of Improved Mage Armor costs 22500 gold pieces to make, the bone wand on top, and whatever the person crafting it wants as a commission. That is a minimum of 450 gold pieces per use, presuming you made the wand yourself and found the bone wand from random loot. A wand of Barksin costs 18000 gold pieces to make and that costs a minimum of 360 gold pieces per use, presuming you made the wand yourself and found the bone wand from random loot.

Now it is funny that you speak of low level dispells, because acquiring that minimum of 40500 gold pieces can be something of a tall order without muling pre-existing equipment and wealth. One could argue that by the time someone starting from scratch can actually afford to get those two wands, they will be easily dispelled, and in the case of IMA, breached.

It kind of brings us back to that point how UMD is kind of pointless without mountain of gold to spare, doesn't it?

chad878262 wrote:Regarding Divine Power Potions, I do not know if they are capped or not. The spells I have found capped are the ones that scale with level (so GMW potions can only make +4 weapons, not +5 and Deez's Repulsive Barrier can only grant 10 or 15% concealment, not 20, for example). Honestly, though your comparison is a bit of a false one:

Comments Only wrote:30 (Caster level) * 4 (Spell level) * 50 (Potion cost) * 0.7 (Master Alchemist Multiplier) = 4200 Gold Pieces per potion. (Does this have some kind of caster level limitation?)

I know that a strength domain cleric could brew it like this without the PRC:
7 (Caster level) * 3 (Spell level) * 50 (Cost Multiplier) = 1050

Master Alchemist does not HAVE to craft CL30 elixirs, they get to set the CL. So a MA without the strength domain could craft 7*4*35= 980 gold against the strength domain cleric without MA which would cost 1050. Now, if you had STR domain and MA the cost would be 7*3*35= 735 gold... So either way Master Alchemist is going to craft the potion cheaper than non-Master Alchemist. This said, I would classify such a potion as something only worthy of using against bosses, it is not feasible for grinding any more than potions of haste or displacement would be. Really the only reason you would want to pay for the higher CL is duration or dispel immunity, neither of which should be the concern with Divine Power.

And yet again we arrive right back to the exact same point. UMD consumables are useless without that mountain of gold to spare.

mrm3ntalist wrote:There is no reason to change UMD or 10lvl PRCs. They work as they should. The dispels were tonned down in every area, making umd use very efficient.

Unfortunately I recall your previous statements about a certain everchanging Balor, so if you say that the use of UMD is very efficient or that the dispels were toned down in every area, then by default the exact opposite must be true for one or both statements. And lo and behold...

Comments Only wrote:Unfortunately I recall your previous statements about a certain everchanging Balor, so if you say that the use of UMD is very efficient or that the dispels were toned down in every area, then by default the exact opposite must be true for one or both statements. And lo and behold...

I always use UMD against the balor. It works great.