10 level PRCs with their own spellbooks - caster levels

[Sun Wukong]

I may have suggested this before, or talked about it before, or whatever...

But, what if a single level of a PRC such as Blackguard or Assassin would give you 3 caster levels per class level up towards your HD of course.

For example a Rogue 5/Assassin 10 would have caster level of 15, and later as Rogue 20/Assassin 10 the caster level would be 30

While a Rogue 7/Assassin 8 would have caster level 15, but later as rogue 22/Assassin 8 the caster level would be only 24.

Thus, there would still be a reason to take Practised Spell Caster (Spellbook PRC) if you are not going for full ten levels.

Anyhow, just suggesting this since current and any future 10 level spellbook PRCs are hurt by dispells. There would be a reason to go for 10 levels of Blackguard instead of that usual 3-4 level dip.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Probably depends a bit on the playstyles, I guess for Assassins this is not really required as they strike from the shadows.

I was wondering that for summons... Don't they all just suck once you hit epics?

[mrm3ntalist]

Yes, we can do the same with wands and umd

[K'yon Oblodra]

Yes, we can do the same with wands and umd

What are you referring to?

[aaron22]

Are you saying that you would use the skill level of umd to represent the Caster level of the wands spell? A 33 umd would have a barkskin level equivalency of a umd + spell level that seems very steep maybe 1/2 umd + spell level cause you could realistically get your umd up near 50-60.

[dedude]

I think Mr Mentalist is being sarcastic.

[Sun Wukong]

The use scroll DCs would be: Lvl 1 (DC13), Lvl 2 (DC15), Lvl 3 (DC17), Lvl 4 (DC19), Lvl 5 (DC21), Lvl 6 (DC23), Lvl 7 (DC25), Lvl 8 (DC27), Lvl 9 (DC29), thus you would need UMD skill of 28 to automatically succeed in using a level 9 scroll.

As for caster levels, I suppose it could be pretty much the same deal, your UMD skill determines your caster level, charisma is the casting stat, and it will be capped at your HD. Thus you would want to reach UMD of 30, and going higher would give no additional benefit beyond a buffer against skill debuffs.

You know, find those squishy rogues and the typical glass juggernauts, and sell them some scrolls at slight profit. Just imagine some wizard or some such setting up shop at FAI for example, he would take in request and the payment in advance, memorize the right spells, rest, and then scribe those spells into scrolls and hand them to the buyers.

The cost to scribe a scroll in NWN2 is equal to Caster Level * Spell Level * 25 gp. Level 0 spells cost half as much as a Level 1 spell. However, in the formula, Caster Level is NOT the character's caster level but the resulting caster level of the scroll to be created.

The scrolls you scribe will have predetermined costs, etc. You just need to go through the stock NWN2 scrolls, check their caster levels, and someone could compile a handy list for reference.

At the moment UMD only really serves a point to allow you to use alignment/class/race restricted items and wands.

I think Mr Mentalist is being sarcastic.

It is a possibility, and on the other hand, it could be a simple fix to current state of UMD.

[Valefort]

The current state of UMD is : totally fine, as for those PRCs they're not dependant on their spells thus they can remain with their low CL, use those appropriately when not susceptible to be dispelled.

[Sun Wukong]

The current state of UMD is : totally fine

Which in otherwords is as follows: if you find a 'red/orange' scroll from loot, and you can use this handy guide for reference, the best use for it to put it up for sale for 5-20k in the in game consignment store. As for every other scroll, pretty much just sell it to some NPC merchant.

In D&D acquiring some scrolls has always been a great boon, no matter who belongs to the party, but this is not the with this server. Over here scrolls are just something you can trade for a bit of gold - because to use a scroll in fight means you have to have two. One to eat the dispel, and one to read after the dispel.

And honestly, I wouldn't be opposed if casters could cast their own scrolls at their real caster levels either. Heck, it is their gold if they want to spend it on a mountain of Fireball scrolls just to be a blaster master.

as for those PRCs they're not dependant on their spells thus they can remain with their low CL,

So in other words Assassin exists solely for Sneak Attack dice and HiPS. Blackguard for Turn Undead and Charisma modifier to saves. Got it - they are nothing more than bland lego blocks used to acquire the previously mentioned mechanical traits! Who cares if Blackguard's spell book is filled with things that maim, poison, and spread disease - or that Assassin's spell book is filled with things that actually enable them to assassinate and flee if things go south.

use those appropriately when not susceptible to be dispelled.

Even if the area has no spellcasters, you are still just one random dispel trap away from being dispelled - or you get that '1 point of experience' per kill, which marks how you ought to be able to survive the area without buggs. In otherwords, the usage sums up to don't bother. At least you can put some scrolls for sale, cannot say the same for these spellbooks.

[Valefort]

How can you misread something that entirely ? By fine it means fine, usable, playable useful. Did you even use UMD lately ?

[Calodan]

How can you misread something that entirely ? By fine it means fine, usable, playable useful. Did you even use UMD lately ?

Kory uses UMD! Extensively! It does work in situational places! Not everyday all the time no. Ummm that is the point right? It is only a quasi mage item. THe mage themselves is better yeah? Still though UMD is all about knowing what is useful and not useful for your build.

For all builds the most useful UMD items are wands and rods. So no pc needs more than 15 UMD to accomplish this. If you want to have access to a couple of other neat tricks to use then you need 33. So it is basically 15 or all of it. That does to me seem a bit out of balance IMO but that does not mean it is not useful. UMD is all sorts of useful here.

[Sun Wukong]

How can you misread something that entirely ? By fine it means fine, usable, playable useful. Did you even use UMD lately ?

And as I responded, I do not think it is fine, usable, or playable useful. And yes, I have to use UMD to wear that Paladin cloak for its regeneration and +2 bonuses to constitution and wisdom - and that same character is also looking up for Wands of Lesser Spell Mantles and Invisible Purges to make some 'caster mobs' far easier to deal with.

You can check all the wands you can craft over here: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Craft_Wand

Take note on the wand of Greater Magic Weapon, for an example, it costs 15000 to make and it gives +1 EB to your weapon. You might just as well just use the Wand of Magic weapon since it does the same and only costs 1500.

And if you consider how rare bone wands are, you can easily get 5k a piece, if not 10-20k from a truly desperate soul. Now, what wand would you actually seek to be made? Well, the answer is probably a Wand of Lesser Spell Mantle because it servers a purpose in PVP and PVE. The same cannot be really said for much else on that craft wand list.

... And when I consider how useful scrolls and wands are in PnP, the whole UMD in NWN2 is just lacking.

[Valefort]

Bone wands are sold by the mage in High Hedge since many months now.

I'm well aware of what is on the craft wand list, I have plenty of those ! And I use UMD spells from scrolls and wands to my heart's content with great success, if not as much success as before.

[chad878262]

Sorry, but if wands are not useful you are simply not using them correctly. Much like with casters, you have to understand when and what to use. Facing caster mobs? You probably need Least Mantles, and Invisibility Purge. For Grinding there might be nothing better than the many long term wands such as IMA, Barkskin/Spiderskin, Keen, Heroism, Mirror Image, Bulls STR, Greater Resistance, and Stoneskin will all allow you to level in areas above your CR, thus earning more experience per kill. Having a wand of Shield as an emergency +4 AC is great when you don't have a +4 Shield and/or want to use two hands for increased damage or Deez's Repulsive barrier can add some limited displacement in addition to the +4 AC and has a bit longer duration. Invisibility is great for many uses as is Displacement for short duration boss battles. In conjunction with boots/scrolls of Ethereal Jaunt you can use the same battle plan as many gishes (i.e. go in with limited/cheap wards and eat the Mords/breach/greater dispel from boss, then Jaunt and ward for 9 rounds and attack). Finally, a Wand of Lesser Breach is obviously a godsend for any PC that can't cast such a spell.

Much like any caster type with less than 30 levels, UMD requires understanding the area you are in and learning what wards work and which ones are not worth it.

[Sun Wukong]

Oh, good to know about that bone wand change, but it still doesn't change the base craft wand costs.

As for you using UMD, Valefort, you are a bit infamous for having just a single character for years and years. It has the benefit of eventually getting all the equipment you could ever want, which means that eventually gold just starts to pile up into a mountain and UMD becomes an affordable gold sink...

But without that mountain of gold to spare, most of the things you can do with UMD are just not worth it... That scroll of Storm Avatar? You use it and you lose it on a dispel. You get more out of it by selling it to a merchant. From the top of my mind, the only scroll that might be worth the investment in UMD is Shadow Simulacrum, as it basically allows you to have a melee mob by your side to enable flanking. But sadly, the only source of those scrolls is player wizards (far more expesinve than stock store prices) and random loot drops.

There is just too many 'ifs' involved with the use of UMD. Which is why I insist that it is not truly worth it.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot about Lesser Breach. I knew I forgot to mention something in that previous post of mine.

Edit II: Refressing Water, has lesser vigor, costs about 20 gp and sold by Farmer Thom. One of the cheapests methods of dispel baiting.