Chaos Spell forces Save by Caster

[Steve]

Consider it a burst of confusion, everything in that area has its mind messed up, it's not something consciouly controlled by the wizard throughout the spell like a domination spell, it's fire and forget.

Yes, even Confusion describes this as a "radius burst." But it also states quite clearly: "This spell causes the targets to become confused..."

A caster does not target themselves for confusion nor chaos, right? RIGHT?!?

If you were to look at that 3.5e supplement I linked earlier, you'll note that Compulsion IS a conscious, controlled action.

However, Val, if you are saying how it is, as in, "this is how it is, period," then I'll simply have to accept that, won't I?

[Valefort]

I don't really care how it turns out to be fair

For me it simply makes sense as it is now, the targets are the people in the area of effect, you included if you're there.

[Steve]

Well, I'm not really positioning this case to be decided on "fairness."

What I am trying to address is the nature of Enchantment spells, as they have been manifested/scripted by the NWN2 engine and developers.

Are there other Enchantment spells, like the Mass line of spells, that also affect the Caster? Or, is it what I'd personally like to think is an oversight in the mechanics, that make Confusion and Chaos a "physical" sphere of Effect, like a Fireball, and not as it sees more appropriately interpreted as a mind-to-mind type of magic, immaterial.

The Spells themselves clearly state they are directed towards "targets," and it is with great doubt that I'd expect a mage to target themselves.

Now to be fair , IF the spell was called Rune of Confusion, or Barrier of Confusion, or Field of Compulsion, or anything that described and/or implied a physical creation that could come into contact with the Caster, I'd be happy to accept a Caster requiring a save against an "entity" of Confusion, that manifests from the caster but exists in form.

But none of that is described AT ALL with the 2 spells in question. It seems like a simple oversight in the development of these spells.

And again, if Confusion and Chaos affect the caster, then why not also have the Mass line of spells also affect the caster?

I'm open for hearing the argument that making Confusion and Chaos NOT affect the caster, is simply OP. But I'm not hearing that argument defined...yet.

Cheers.

[Valefort]

I was speaking about fairness as far as discussion go, I'm not invested in this, I don't care what the decision will be and both possibilities are technically possible, hence my words have no special hold here.

That point being hopefully clear my opinion is that this spell is working as it should be. Confusion/Chaos is a burst of mind-disruption that is not consciouly controlled by the caster but just dropped as a bomb, and then every living being who is in the area of effect is therefore affected by that spell.

The comparison with Dominate falls flate because it's targeted, same for mass hold person which is only a multiple version of the Hold person spell, which is targeted.

Also technically it's very simple to change so if someone comes up with a justification saying that it should only affect hostiles then no problem !

[dedude]

Forgive the pun, but I don't see what is causing the confusion here The description seems very clear to me.

Mass Hold Person:

Targets: One or more humanoid creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

Confusion:

Targets: All creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Leave it as is, it'll give more reason to use shaping.

[Steve]

Enchantment

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.

Enchantment spells do not create a form. There is no "bomb" there. That is schools of Evocation and Conjuration. Look it up, please.

Look at all the spells in the Sub-School of Enchantment called Compulsion. Tell me: Besides Mind Fog—which explicitly states a "thin veil of fog...", where are the Spells NOT directed from Caster to subject?

I also want to point out that the description states "creatures affected." When did PCs become synonymous with Creatures?

Anyway, it makes no sense to continue another Staff vs. Steve thread. I've made my point that Confusion and Chaos are meant to affect Others, not the Caster. I've seen no concrete information posted that states that a Caster is able to "compulse" themselves, either intentionally or unintentionally, by poorly calculating the physical distance of meters when casting these spells.

Show me the text that states an Enchanter needs to be wary of how their spells will create "zone of effect" that can backfire by enchanting themselves, and I'll be the first person to say you are correct, and my point is without merit. Until then, then....

[aaron22]

After reading all the posts in this thread, Steve is correct. There is not a single point that he has made that can be disputed.

If it is a power creep issue, then that is the ace in the hole. If this is the case, then no matter how descriptions read it should remain unchanged.

[NeonAvenger]

I was going to disagree completely with Steve and had compiled a long, long, long reply which point by point refuted just about everything he wrote... and then I found the flaw in my argument.

Confusion has the following self contradictory line:

Targets: All creatures within a 15ft. radius burst

Both "Target" and "Burst" carry specific meanings under PnP rules.

Of note in this case the definition of Target contains the following:

"You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target."

While the Area definition states:

... you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects...
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: ... A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see.

I'm inclined to think that the Target definition takes precedence since it is "higher up" in the spell definition, and would make the behaviour match all the other enchantment spells, and the word 'burst' should be removed entirely.
Then again there's still room for interpretation and of course game play and game balance are vastly more important than correctly following the rules.

p.s. I still disagree with just about everything Steve wrote, I just now think he was right for all the wrong reasons.

[Steve]

I still disagree with just about everything Steve wrote, I just now think he was right for all the wrong reasons.

Hahaha! You made my day!!

[metaquad4]

Is there a reason you don't have lesser mind blank up?

Its supposed to go through mental immunities, at-least according to its description. "Protection from Alignment and immunity vs mind affecting type of effects do not inhibit the spell."

Anyway, I've been able to cast this spell without being in its AoE. I don't know how I managed that, but I did?

[Storm Munin]

Well, I always thought the answer to the ability to affect yourself lay in the name of the spell.
Chaos.
It does create some awkward chaotic moments when the caster fails its save doesnt it.
Remember Nietzsche: "And if you gaze long enough into an Abyss, the Abyss will gaze back into you."
Setting mind traps into the minds of others at this level of spellcasting has consequences, not always handled easily in the casting?


I believe it should be left as is, but if its changed it is changed.


/M

[Rasael]

Chaos is a spell I adapted from one of the 2nd edition AD&D sourcebooks, Wizards spell compendium vol [x]. Probably volume 1, given that its name starts with a C.

It was customized from there on out to fit on our server. We had a QC discussion about it back before the server was receiving updates again. If I remember right (its some time ago) we had it affect everyone include the caster on purpose. Although that might not be in the description. Which needs to be updated in that case.


I adapted most of the (relatively) 'new' spells from those AD&D spellbook sources. I think it makes sense to look to AD&D content in order to get the same old school vibe.

So that's the source. Its not entirely homebrewed. And this is the reason the staff are on the same line, they had this discussion before.

[Steve]

If you want to get technical about how this has gone from conception to realization, then let's start at the beginning:



I still do not see the justification by QC that it needs to affect the Caster. Even this Source says "...move as far from the caster as possible...). How can a Caster move away from themselves!?!?

[Sun Wukong]

Hmn... Lesser Mind Blank? Shouldn't it block this spell?