Question about Spell DCs

[Babuguuscooties]

No but at the same time that won't make them more powerful either, simply more diversity.

That's what I was getting at. IT seems right now that the primary schools are Necromancy (absolutely the most popular), illusion, enchantment and perhaps now conjuration thanks to its summoning perks. However, im not sure they are doing enough bc I havent actually played one. I don't know if they make something like thaumaturge or however its spelled (lol) that much better.

[wangxiuming]

I would argue that having more options is having more power though, even if it is only a nominal increase.

[Babuguuscooties]

I would argue that having more options is having more power though, even if it is only a nominal increase.

Well I guess the only question is, can we expand upon each specialization of magic a wizard can choose from without making wizards as a whole even more powerful than they already are? I mean if a transmuter can save or die you in the same manner as a necromancer is that really a difference? It just means there may be more options for wizards to pick from that are actually viable. For instance, playing an abjurer or diviner atm is more or less pointless. Its fun RP imo, but what do you get for your troubles? Abjurers could be the best at dispelling though, with some tweaks. Or maybe the hardest to dispel? Diviners could be the best counter-spellers perhaps? Just ideas.

[wangxiuming]

To be honest, I am personally against giving the different spell schools access to the same types of spell effects. What would be the point of having different spell schools at all, if the goal is to make them all have the same utility?

I do agree that abjurers and diviners are not going to be the best performers in a Persistent world PvE / PvP setting. But I don't see anything wrong with that. Their benefits are going to be in their RP - not everything has to be equally viable at killing things.

[Babuguuscooties]

To be honest, I am personally against giving the different spell schools access to the same types of spell effects. What would be the point of having different spell schools at all, if the goal is to make them all have the same utility?

I do agree that abjurers and diviners are not going to be the best performers in a Persistent world PvE / PvP setting. But I don't see anything wrong with that. Their benefits are going to be in their RP - not everything has to be equally viable at killing things.

Well I agree, and it may not even be possible. However, there's no harm in brainstorming about it. After-all, maybe a mage in-game can create a spell of his own imagination that would make abjurers have at least one decent offensive ability. I know of a certain character who was attempting to do this at one time, but has since retired that character.

We can agree to disagree, that's all good. I just think its okay to have a discussion. I'm not saying that diviners need a save or die spell at level 9. However, the RP already sets the various schools apart from one another. What we need is a mechanical purpose to play each one. Necromancer for instance is taboo on the surface, so it at least has a downside that sort of acts as a deterrent (not really though). Notice I'm not calling for a nerf of necromancy, or enchantment/illusion. I'm just talking about raising the other schools to be worthwhile as well.


EDIT: As it stands right now, if you want to play a wizard who can reliably kill things with a save or die you are more or less forced to play a necromancer (arguably illusion/enchantment would suffice for a good-aligned character). What would be so bad about offering players a different path? A transmuter who has his own variation of a save or die (maybe like a gravity spell or some-such). Granted, after all that's been said I don't actually think the solution for transmutation is a 9th level save or die. I'm more interested in seeing spells like Shapechange get a buff. Maybe even make a transmuters spells like bull's strength give a +6 instead of a +4. That'd make them plenty valuable!

[chad878262]

You also have to take in to account long term protections. Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy all have long term protections available (PfE, Mind Blank, Death Ward, Shadow Shield)... While other spells are only defended against with mantles. Creating new spells should take these mechanics in to consideration as well as the fact that some spells allow Spell Resistance while others do not, some require two failed saves (weird/phantasmal killer) and some save or suck spells are actually more powerful even with slightly lower DC in the right circumstance. You mentioned Mass Blindness/Deafness which against low fort/high will save enemies for an illusionist is a far better option than Weird. Similarly for low will/high fort save enemies Solipsism is a better spell. Weird is only really a good option against rogue types that have BOTH low fortitude and low will saves, making it less useful than those other, lower circle spells.

By the same token, Flesh to Stone is a solid option even though it will have a DC 3 points lower than an equally build Necromancer casting Wail. Even if Prot. from Petrification works (not sure it does), it is a level 5 spell (so no wands) and lasts 2 rounds/level vs. the hour / level of Pfe or Deathward (both can be wands). Thus it is more difficult to be immune to Flesh to Stone than it is to be immune to Wail or Weird.

When I think about balance in spell schools, this is what I think about. The most powerful schools also have a weakness to them. Necromancy can be rendered useless with a wand anyone can purchase. Enchantment and Illusion can also be rendered useless by a wand, the best Illusion spell allows 2 saves instead of 1 and Enchantment allows the enemy to save every round for the hold spells (though not dominate). Meanwhile Transmutations "weakness" is that it's best save or die spell is level 6 outside chickenator... So the DC is 3 points lower than a comparable build focusing on one of the other 3 schools, but it is much more difficult for other players to be immune to the spell. I personally think all of the schools have something to offer right now. Even divination, while difficult can be deadly. Doubling the max HP for power word spells? Whoa! Power Word Blind will now blind an enemy with up to 400 HP for d4+1 rounds! Power Word Stun will make an enemy with 300 HP stunned for d4 rounds! 200 HP enemy can be petrified or killed with no save. Granted, most of this is single enemy stuff, but a 400 HP enemy being blinded for 2-5 rounds gives the diviner a LOT of time to get those HP down to 200 for the kill. "Avasculate"..."Power Word Kill"...win. Only very high HP enemies (barbarians, M@A, Dwarven Defender types) will give such a character any difficulty at all, and even there they likely only need a couple casts of IGMS to whittle them down.

Is there room for new/different spells for flavor that give additional options? Sure, but should there be more save or die level 9 spells for new schools? IMO, no there shouldn't. I do not agree that Necromancer is the only school that can reliably kill things with save or die spells. In PvE Flesh to Stone will still work fairly often for a transmuter and can be extended and quickened (if you have ASOC) to give you more spell levels to cast it. Not to mention the fact that a Transmuter, diviner, conjurer, etc. is not prevented from casting Wail or Weird, they only get the +1/2/3 DC from taking the feats, but if you know your enemies strengths/weaknesses and use the correct save DC it is far more beneficial than those 3 extra DC points.

[Babuguuscooties]

You also have to take in to account long term protections. Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy all have long term protections available (PfE, Mind Blank, Death Ward, Shadow Shield)... While other spells are only defended against with mantles. Creating new spells should take these mechanics in to consideration as well as the fact that some spells allow Spell Resistance while others do not, some require two failed saves (weird/phantasmal killer) and some save or suck spells are actually more powerful even with slightly lower DC in the right circumstance. You mentioned Mass Blindness/Deafness which against low fort/high will save enemies for an illusionist is a far better option than Weird. Similarly for low will/high fort save enemies Solipsism is a better spell. Weird is only really a good option against rogue types that have BOTH low fortitude and low will saves, making it less useful than those other, lower circle spells.

By the same token, Flesh to Stone is a solid option even though it will have a DC 3 points lower than an equally build Necromancer casting Wail. Even if Prot. from Petrification works (not sure it does), it is a level 5 spell (so no wands) and lasts 2 rounds/level vs. the hour / level of Pfe or Deathward (both can be wands). Thus it is more difficult to be immune to Flesh to Stone than it is to be immune to Wail or Weird.

When I think about balance in spell schools, this is what I think about. The most powerful schools also have a weakness to them. Necromancy can be rendered useless with a wand anyone can purchase. Enchantment and Illusion can also be rendered useless by a wand, the best Illusion spell allows 2 saves instead of 1 and Enchantment allows the enemy to save every round for the hold spells (though not dominate). Meanwhile Transmutations "weakness" is that it's best save or die spell is level 6 outside chickenator... So the DC is 3 points lower than a comparable build focusing on one of the other 3 schools, but it is much more difficult for other players to be immune to the spell. I personally think all of the schools have something to offer right now. Even divination, while difficult can be deadly. Doubling the max HP for power word spells? Whoa! Power Word Blind will now blind an enemy with up to 400 HP for d4+1 rounds! Power Word Stun will make an enemy with 300 HP stunned for d4 rounds! 200 HP enemy can be petrified or killed with no save. Granted, most of this is single enemy stuff, but a 400 HP enemy being blinded for 2-5 rounds gives the diviner a LOT of time to get those HP down to 200 for the kill. "Avasculate"..."Power Word Kill"...win. Only very high HP enemies (barbarians, M@A, Dwarven Defender types) will give such a character any difficulty at all, and even there they likely only need a couple casts of IGMS to whittle them down.

Is there room for new/different spells for flavor that give additional options? Sure, but should there be more save or die level 9 spells for new schools? IMO, no there shouldn't. I do not agree that Necromancer is the only school that can reliably kill things with save or die spells. In PvE Flesh to Stone will still work fairly often for a transmuter and can be extended and quickened (if you have ASOC) to give you more spell levels to cast it. Not to mention the fact that a Transmuter, diviner, conjurer, etc. is not prevented from casting Wail or Weird, they only get the +1/2/3 DC from taking the feats, but if you know your enemies strengths/weaknesses and use the correct save DC it is far more beneficial than those 3 extra DC points.

Well, I do not doubt for a second that your word is the gospel here. I'm 0% tested in PVP. I can not even begin to debate the whole skill vs build/items thing. In other words, I believe you about using the right spell at the right time. However, I think its worth pointing out that necromancy is outlawed on the surface in many places. So for some good-aligned characters it isn't gonna be possible to make use of it. That aside, for my own character its his prohibited school. I guess the real issue may be that you don't get much for actually picking a specialization at level 1. If you go generalist you have no prohibited school, and lose a spell slot, right? Besides, you shouldn't have to resort to using necromancy's avasculate and wail of the banshee. I think that primer spell to buff power words sounds awesome. Is it even used though? does it work properly? I don't think I know a single diviner in the server. Not to mention anyone who didnt pick divination as their specialization could use those spells to the exact same effect. power words don't have saves, so while that in a sense makes them super powerful, it also means that diviners don't exactly benefit from them more than anyone else. So they don't help divination to be a more useful specialization. That's the crux of my argument, I think.

[aaron22]

It works great. In pvp it makes an alive enemy a dead enemy fast and efficiently.

[chad878262]

Pretty sure Tsidkenu used it with Aieli and said it worked, but don't want to put words in his mouth... I haven't heard any reports that it doesn't work either. Also, you don't need to use Avasculate... Maximized IGMS will do 144 points of damage, Empowered will do 84. Or you could use Maximized Fireburst (168), Chain Lightning (144), Disintegrate (240) or any number of other damage based spells. That said Divination is certainly still an "RP" choice rather than a power choice, but Tsid is really the 'expert' on such things (and really on just about anything related to magic).

My point was simply that one does not have to rely on Necromancy to be a strong caster as even the 'weakest' school has spells that are 'good enough' to warrant a look. That said Evocation has the bigby line of spells in addition to most damage spells, Conjuration gets improved summons, cloud spells and some damage spells, Transmutation gets polymorph, shapechange, and a couple save spells/damage spells, Abjuration gets dispelling and protections (though I forget if we made them better at doing either)... There are many incorrect assumptions that IMO proliferate Necromancy as 'they' school to specialize in, but a general belief doesn't actually make something in to a fact. I would argue Conjuration and Enchantment are the two BEST schools if you want to be able to make it through DM events, since they can make their spells take out many enemies through summons/domination, while DC Casters spend at least one spell for every encounter, the Conjurer or Enchanter may only need one spell for several encounters. Thus leaving them with a larger arsenal for the end boss.

Arguing the power of a mage based on one spell that they might be able to cast 4-6 times in a rest doesn't really take in to account all of the facets that go in to a 'power' discussion. There are lots of different ways to be a successful mage, that's why they are an interesting and popular class! I have never focused on Necromancy mostly because I find it the least interesting, personally. I have played a DC illusionist (HiPS mage), a Conjuration/Crafting focused Mage (M/MA/T- Current) and several gish types and have never found any of them in need of more power or more options... Any my HiPS mage opposition school was Evocation so no Bigby and no IGMS! He still did great (Quickened Grease + pick your save or X spell FTW!) Buddy of mine, Invoker helped me realize that little combo and I once took out Chaos and his buddies using it. Laid down a couple of grease spells, followed by an Acid Cloud and a couple Undeath to Deaths... Good fun!

[Babuguuscooties]

Pretty sure Tsidkenu used it with Aieli and said it worked, but don't want to put words in his mouth... I haven't heard any reports that it doesn't work either. Also, you don't need to use Avasculate... Maximized IGMS will do 144 points of damage, Empowered will do 84. Or you could use Maximized Fireburst (168), Chain Lightning (144), Disintegrate (240) or any number of other damage based spells. That said Divination is certainly still an "RP" choice rather than a power choice, but Tsid is really the 'expert' on such things (and really on just about anything related to magic).

My point was simply that one does not have to rely on Necromancy to be a strong caster as even the 'weakest' school has spells that are 'good enough' to warrant a look. That said Evocation has the bigby line of spells in addition to most damage spells, Conjuration gets improved summons, cloud spells and some damage spells, Transmutation gets polymorph, shapechange, and a couple save spells/damage spells, Abjuration gets dispelling and protections (though I forget if we made them better at doing either)... There are many incorrect assumptions that IMO proliferate Necromancy as 'they' school to specialize in, but a general belief doesn't actually make something in to a fact. I would argue Conjuration and Enchantment are the two BEST schools if you want to be able to make it through DM events, since they can make their spells take out many enemies through summons/domination, while DC Casters spend at least one spell for every encounter, the Conjurer or Enchanter may only need one spell for several encounters. Thus leaving them with a larger arsenal for the end boss.

Arguing the power of a mage based on one spell that they might be able to cast 4-6 times in a rest doesn't really take in to account all of the facets that go in to a 'power' discussion. There are lots of different ways to be a successful mage, that's why they are an interesting and popular class! I have never focused on Necromancy mostly because I find it the least interesting, personally. I have played a DC illusionist (HiPS mage), a Conjuration/Crafting focused Mage (M/MA/T- Current) and several gish types and have never found any of them in need of more power or more options... Any my HiPS mage opposition school was Evocation so no Bigby and no IGMS! He still did great (Quickened Grease + pick your save or X spell FTW!) Buddy of mine, Invoker helped me realize that little combo and I once took out Chaos and his buddies using it. Laid down a couple of grease spells, followed by an Acid Cloud and a couple Undeath to Deaths... Good fun!

Idk who chaos is. Is that a boss?

Like I said, I do defer to you guys since I'm pretty new to this. If you don't think there needs to be any changes I'll accept that. I know its a headache and a half for the scripters anyway. I do have a question though. Is shapechange a good spell as is? I have only marginally made use of it so far, but I felt much more powerful without shifting. It made me feel weaker, tbh. I was a fire giant fighting yetis as a level 17 wizard / ASoC.


EDIT: Just asking whether or not Shapechange (and I guess Polymorph) could stand to be buffed for transmuters who specialize? Like I know you wouldn't wanna make them anywhere near a druid's dragon form, but how powerful are they now? Are they relatively useless in PVP encounters? I know that might be difficult to answer, but just generally speaking I guess.

[aaron22]

Fights by yeti at level 17 is pretty good

[chad878262]

The biggest issue is the Giants are currently ABYSSMAL in comparison to the other forms. Horned Devil, Night Walker, and Iron Golem are all ok under the right circumstances. They all have far better AC than the giants (like 20 points better!)

So, yes, it's powerful and, as I stated previously it might get a boost tied to Transmutation focus feats in the future (not a promise or guarantee, just something that might be done). Again, you have to take a lot in to consideration, rather than just the one spell... Your AB doesn't change so you need to buff yourself as much as possible to make it work, but it lasts 1 minute / caster level so if you buff with other spells to improve AC, AB, etc. and then Shapechange you have only used maybe ~10-15 spells at most in order to be a Tank for the next 30 minutes. How many mobs can you kill in 30 minutes as a Horned Devil? 'Grinding' in this manner requires you to rest less often, which means you have to rebuff less often so you spend less time re-memorizing, resting, re-buffing, etc. and more time adventuring.

Of course it is not as strong as a Dragon Druid, it is not supposed to be! However, if you are worried about conserving spell power, buffing up and then shapechanging is not a bad way to retain your strongest spells for later. Also, as Aaron said fighting Yeti's at level 17 is a quite a bit above your CR so you should struggle a bit. That is a low/early epic area...

[Deathgrowl]

That must have been sloooooooooooow with 8 bab.

And much higher CR than you really should be fighting, at least solo!

[Babuguuscooties]

The biggest issue is the Giants are currently ABYSSMAL in comparison to the other forms. Horned Devil, Night Walker, and Iron Golem are all ok under the right circumstances. They all have far better AC than the giants (like 20 points better!)

So, yes, it's powerful and, as I stated previously it might get a boost tied to Transmutation focus feats in the future (not a promise or guarantee, just something that might be done). Again, you have to take a lot in to consideration, rather than just the one spell... Your AB doesn't change so you need to buff yourself as much as possible to make it work, but it lasts 1 minute / caster level so if you buff with other spells to improve AC, AB, etc. and then Shapechange you have only used maybe ~10-15 spells at most in order to be a Tank for the next 30 minutes. How many mobs can you kill in 30 minutes as a Horned Devil? 'Grinding' in this manner requires you to rest less often, which means you have to rebuff less often so you spend less time re-memorizing, resting, re-buffing, etc. and more time adventuring.

Of course it is not as strong as a Dragon Druid, it is not supposed to be! However, if you are worried about conserving spell power, buffing up and then shapechanging is not a bad way to retain your strongest spells for later. Also, as Aaron said fighting Yeti's at level 17 is a quite a bit above your CR so you should struggle a bit. That is a low/early epic area...

So, Iron Golem is entirely useable by my wizard. However, is there any RP issues that might arise from a NG wizard shifting into a Horned Devil, or a Nightwalker? It seems odd to me, but I honestly don't know if a NG wizard would willingly take those forms or not. I guess they ''could'', and would if they had to. That makes sense, but ICly is it okay to take those forms as a good wizard? If not then that leaves me with Iron Golem and two crap giants

I know it isn't supposed to be on par with the dragon druid. No qualms there. I was just curious as to weather or not it was worth wasting a level 9 slot for when adventuring.

As for being in a higher CR area, oops! What can I say? I got bold when I got that level 9 elder fire elemental lol.

[Babuguuscooties]

Hey, you could boost the duration on mord's sword summon! That's a transmutation spell that's pretty cool, but its 1/round per level. That's the same as Gate!