Question about Spell DCs

[Babuguuscooties]

For the purpose of determining DCs, does a quickened flesh to stone spell act as a 9th level spell, or its actual spell level? Just wondering since it takes up a 9th level spell slot.

[chad878262]

Metamagic spells act in all ways like the original spell level other than the specific effects of metamagic. So a quickened spells DC is still based on the base spell level. Also, Flesh to Stone is a level 6 spell and can't be quickened unless you have ASoC 10. Even then, not sure that is the best use of a 9th level slot. In most cases quicken is better used either to set up another spell or for defense. For example a quickened grease followed by a cloud spell or a quickened least mantle.

[Babuguuscooties]

Ah, okay thank you for that. Helpful as always, Chad. I was just trying to conclude whether or not Transmutation had any viable offensive 9th level spells. It does not, unless you count mass fowl.

[chad878262]

It is POSSIBLE that in a future update Polymorph and Shapechange will be modified to be better for those with Transmutation focus (similar to summons with conjuration or Necromancy). However, it is obviously not in game at this time so nothing is promised.

[Babuguuscooties]

It is POSSIBLE that in a future update Polymorph and Shapechange will be modified to be better for those with Transmutation focus (similar to summons with conjuration or Necromancy). However, it is obviously not in game at this time so nothing is promised.

Well, that could be cool but Transmuters need something to make 'em worth building DCs for!

[chad878262]

They have Flesh to Stone, which may be level 6 instead of level 9, but it is also not NEARLY as easy to protect against as Illusion (Lesser Mind Blank/Prot f. Evil/Good) or Necromancy (Death Ward, Shadow Shield).

I believe Transmutation could use some more love, but it is unlikely they will get a 9th level save or die type of spell.

[Babuguuscooties]

Hm... Well to be honest I'm still new to this DC business. Is a flesh to stone even useful on a transmutation DC wizard with a wizard/ASoC/Archmage build?


EDIT: Also, there is a spell now that is protection from petrification.

[chad878262]

last I tested prot from petrification doesn't work, though that was a while ago so may have been fixed.

Otherwise, yes it is a useful spell. The previous (long time) leader of the Red Wizard's was a Transmutation specialist.

[Babuguuscooties]

So how'd he fight? More as a blaster, or did Flesh to Stone work for him? Obv he likely had higher DCs than my ultimate 36 INT is gonna give me but still. (That's with +4 INT and spellcasting prod)


EDIT: Oh, and just out of curiosity why not a 9th level save or die transmutation spell? I haven't looked, but necromancy has wail of the banshee and that one is a pretty huge radius that also doesnt affect the caster, I think. A single target save or die transmutation spell doesn't sound all that OP by comparison, even if it'd take SR or a spell mantle to block it. It's not like deathward matters when the wizard is just gonna mord it away before he does his wail anyway right?

[chad878262]

You'd have to ask him... I do know that Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate were big in his arsenal, but at the time GBC was Transmutation as well (which it currently still is I guess).

Mord is a bit of a tricky proposition... You can't quicken it and if you cast it it's easy enough for a player to pop another deathward or least mantle up. Of course, assuming it is not a caster (Greater) dispel Magic or lesser spell breach is likely all you need, no need to waste a 9th level spell on a non-caster. Quicken Lesser Breach, followed by the save or die of your choice is probably the better approach, if deathward or mantle is the only protection they have up.

EDIT: Oh, and just out of curiosity why not a 9th level save or die transmutation spell? I haven't looked, but necromancy has wail of the banshee and that one is a pretty huge radius that also doesnt affect the caster, I think. A single target save or die transmutation spell doesn't sound all that OP by comparison, even if it'd take SR or a spell mantle to block it. It's not like deathward matters when the wizard is just gonna mord it away before he does his wail anyway right?

Well, I didn't say 'no', I said 'unlikely'. Casters are already the top of the heap so there is really no reason to make them MORE powerful or have MORE ways to destroy you that others have to protect against. DC Wizards are basically top of the heap, power wise. They aren't much fun to grind to 30 and they don't have staying power like other classes, but one on one at full power and buffed they are glass cannons protected by a fusion shield. They can destroy you with a gesture, while you can wail on them all day without getting through their defenses.

The only way to beat a DC wizard is either with a very good counter spelling Sorcerer (more spells), another DC caster, or because they make a mistake/you're just better at PvP then them. Of course this is coming from a not-very-good PvP'er so it may be completely wrong

So the question isn't "why not more save or die 9th level spells" so much as "why should they get more power/more ways to win?"

This is all my opinion and doesn't represent any official QC stance or any other viewpoint of the staff or management of BGtSCC.

[Babuguuscooties]

You'd have to ask him... I do know that Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate were big in his arsenal, but at the time GBC was Transmutation as well (which it currently still is I guess).

Mord is a bit of a tricky proposition... You can't quicken it and if you cast it it's easy enough for a player to pop another deathward or least mantle up. Of course, assuming it is not a caster (Greater) dispel Magic or lesser spell breach is likely all you need, no need to waste a 9th level spell on a non-caster. Quicken Lesser Breach, followed by the save or die of your choice is probably the better approach, if deathward or mantle is the only protection they have up.

EDIT: Oh, and just out of curiosity why not a 9th level save or die transmutation spell? I haven't looked, but necromancy has wail of the banshee and that one is a pretty huge radius that also doesnt affect the caster, I think. A single target save or die transmutation spell doesn't sound all that OP by comparison, even if it'd take SR or a spell mantle to block it. It's not like deathward matters when the wizard is just gonna mord it away before he does his wail anyway right?

Well, I didn't say 'no', I said 'unlikely'. Casters are already the top of the heap so there is really no reason to make them MORE powerful or have MORE ways to destroy you that others have to protect against. DC Wizards are basically top of the heap, power wise. They aren't much fun to grind to 30 and they don't have staying power like other classes, but one on one at full power and buffed they are glass cannons protected by a fusion shield. They can destroy you with a gesture, while you can wail on them all day without getting through their defenses.

The only way to beat a DC wizard is either with a very good counter spelling Sorcerer (more spells), another DC caster, or because they make a mistake/you're just better at PvP then them. Of course this is coming from a not-very-good PvP'er so it may be completely wrong

So the question isn't "why not more save or die 9th level spells" so much as "why should they get more power/more ways to win?"

This is all my opinion and doesn't represent any official QC stance or any other viewpoint of the staff or management of BGtSCC.

Fair enough! I haven't even ever PVP'd in nwn2, so I really can't argue. Good to know about the dispelling stuff though. I'll have to remember that just in case.

As for the 9th lvl transmutation DC spell I suppose I was looking at it from a smaller perspective. I was thinking "transmuters need something to rival wail of the banshee'', but I guess when looking at the bigger picture of trying to balance all classes and builds as much as possible it does make things worse to add another 9th level instant death spell that is harder to become immune to than death magic and mind-affecting spells. Maybe I'll have to just figure something else out. After-all, I will eventually have mass fowl and even if its epic that's still a transmutation spell. So there's my high level save or "die" anyway. Maybe it'd make more sense for Ned to develop something else if he develops any spell at all. Regardless, I see your point. I was kind of worried that flesh to stone was going to be useless since it was only a 6th level spell, but I guess it has some use in pvp after-all...Maybe


Let me just finish by saying that I don't want to come off as overly-concerned about pvp. It's just that the direction I want to take nedrin in may very well result in some pvp down the road, and I honestly just want to be as prepared as possible within the boundaries of my class/roleplay etc. I need to have ned find him an IC ''sparring'' partner so he and I both can brush up on these arcane mechanics. I don't even know how to counter-spell. I know how to activate it, but I haven't been able to get it to work yet lol.

[dedude]

Transmutation gets Shapechange at lvl 9, necromancy gets Wail, illusion gets Weird, enchantment gets Dominate Monster, etc. Lets not try to make all the schools identical, but rather embrace the diversity. That is what we are doing by putting more emphasis on the spell focus feats.

[Babuguuscooties]

Transmutation gets Shapechange at lvl 9, necromancy gets Wail, illusion gets Weird, enchantment gets Dominate Monster, etc. Lets not try to make all the schools identical, but rather embrace the diversity. That is what we are doing by putting more emphasis on the spell focus feats.

That's fair. It'd be cool if transmutation specialization bolstered the polymorph and shapechange spells. I'd be interested in that. So far my time using shapechange has been fairly lackluster. I tried battling frost giants and yeti's as a fully buffed up fire giant with a fully buffed up level 9 elder fire elemental and I faired much better just being in normal form and blasting maximized firebrands out tbh.


EDIT: However, I will add that necro, illus, and ench all have save or die spells. Dominate may as well be save or die. Transmutation, Divination, Abjuration and Conjuration don't get a save or die level 9 spell. Just figured it was worth noting since I was just talking with chad above about transmutation getting a level 9 save or die spell. It's no coincidence that the 3 most used and popular schools all have level 9 save or die spells. Don't forget illusion also gets that amazing mass blindness/deafness! The only thing I'll say that may disqualify transmutation atm is it does have mass fowl as an epic spell. that's transmutation, so it technically has an end game save or die spell because of that. Idk if enchantment and illusion have epic spells of their respective schools.

[wangxiuming]

From a broader perspective though ... do wizards really need more save or die spells?

[Valefort]

No but at the same time that won't make them more powerful either, simply more diversity.