Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

i say let them choose ghostly visage, mirror walk and etherial jaunt as possible spells.
also, let them pick a free feat at the beginning, the character of their spirit, that gives them +1 lore:(spirits specialty) per level.
telthor should not cost a feat.

Flasmix wrote:As it stands, a ss/monk can get the highest AC in the game. With the healing capabilities they're the best tanks out there. Damage and AB is where they fall off which is why there's pause for concern regarding buffs.

Are you talking about shapechange? I thought that was about to be changed with new/different forms anyway.

Flasmix wrote:As it stands, a ss/monk can get the highest AC in the game. With the healing capabilities they're the best tanks out there.

Precisely. Which is why if they get buffed up too much elsewhere the Monk multi-class should go.

Rangers adn Druids can unsummon, then summon their companions 2 minutes later with full health.

How about strike that, and make it so rangers and Druids can only summon their companion once a rest, but spirit shaman can summon and unsummon their telthors, with a 2 minute cool down. Kind of reminiscent of the way telthors would appear in mask of the betrayer.

Please make Thaumaturge levels stack with class levels for Telthor Companion or add an optional feat that allows it to stack.

I'm only level six so don't take my word vs the people who have multiple epics but abandoning DC based magic and taking a race with a martial favored class has been working out incredibly well for me so far.

Adding Eagle's Splendour to the druid/shaman spell list is definitely a good suggestion. It's never made any sense that they don't have it.

And speaking of things that don't make sense, it's always bugged me is that shamans seem mechanically expected to do combat in their base form while druids are expected to do combat while shifted, yet druids have medium armor and shamans only have light. Shamans should really have medium armor proficiency at least.

For Blood Magic, I don't actually see the damage as being all that bad, as I like the idea that you have to go for a Constitution build to maximize its usefulness. The main problem with that is, of course, the MAD issue. Though I've never been fond of suggestions to make Cha a single primary stat, at least not as default, as that hurts some character types and I do think Wisdom is very important for the class's concept. A kit that provides a SAD option however would be great.

With regards to its AB, do keep in mind that the shaman becomes considerably more capable in melee with shapechange. Its medium AB and lack of class-based shifting means it gets more benefit out of shapechange than virtually any other caster. This also helps to negate the MAD issue as you don't have to spare points towards physical attributes when using shapechange. While it'd certainly be nice to have more options for non-shapechanged melee, existing class abilities do allow the shaman to make itself reasonably potent even when just going straight shaman. Not saying that more AB buffs wouldn't be nice, but I do find a lot of shaman players overlook shapechange so I wanted to point it out.

For Chastise, the big issue with it is that it suffers from the same weakness every other AOE spell does in NWN: an environment with large amounts of single high-strength targets rather than groups of weaker targets. Chastise both needs the same damage buff that normal AOE spells have gotten on BG, and it could, IMO, benefit from a single target version. That being said, I view Weaken Spirit as considerably more useful than Chastise when fighting spirit-type monsters due to its ability to remove concealment/DR effects (it's a God-send against the 10 DR earth elementals in Nashkel mines, or when fighting shadows). I've always thought that if you want to make shaman class abilities more general, instead of increasing the amount of targets that chastise hits it'd be much more interesting to simply make Weaken Spirit unrestricted. Shamans being able to eliminate concealment/DR effects in their targets would be a neat niche and make up for their lack of AB buffs.

I've made a few of these suggestions previously, along with some kit ideas, in a previous thread.

As far as Monk/Shaman goes, I believe BG devs were intending on making some changes to make Wisdom AC stacking more difficult for those kinds of builds?

Steve wrote:Minimum Caster Levels these days is 25. Go any lower, and you're toast. Even 25 is dangerous if you absolutely rely on Buffs. You can mitigate this by having essentially +4 gear in all your slots if you are so lucky, but then you're not really focusing on supporting your caster abilities to the fullest.

Shamans actually have a bit more range than most classes, because they can combine Practiced Spellcaster with Blood Magic to get a +8 bonus to their caster level for buffs. I didn't really have any dispel issues on my Shaman 20 / Warlock 10 build because of that (aside from seemingly every epic mob having spell resistance, making Hideous Blow not as useful for such a build as it could be).

NeOmega wrote:i say let them choose ghostly visage, mirror walk and etherial jaunt as possible spells.

In PnP, Spirit Form is actually ethereal jaunt (like NWN2 Spirit Journey is now), while Spirit Journey is Shadow Walk. Converting both of those abilities to their pnp versions would be a nice change, and wouldn't require spell list adjustments (while 5 round Displacement from the current Spirit Form can be useful on rare occasions, I don't think anyone would miss it if it changed).

NeOmega wrote:How about strike that, and make it so rangers and Druids can only summon their companion once a rest, but spirit shaman can summon and unsummon their telthors, with a 2 minute cool down. Kind of reminiscent of the way telthors would appear in mask of the betrayer.

While that would sorta fit the theme, resummoning companions aren't that useful to anyone, as one needs to give the companion substantial buffs to be effective whenever one brings it out. Which usually means having to rest anyway.

Rhifox wrote:And speaking of things that don't make sense, it's always bugged me is that shamans seem mechanically expected to do combat in their base form while druids are expected to do combat while shifted, yet druids have medium armor and shamans only have light.

Yeah, the whole class seems hastily planned. Maybe the idea is for it to be a sort of lightly armored divine sorcerer, but the offensive casting abilities just don't match up.

Rhifox wrote:For Blood Magic, I don't actually see the damage as being all that bad, as I like the idea that you have to go for a Constitution build to maximize its usefulness. The main problem with that is, of course, the MAD issue. Though I've never been fond of suggestions to make Cha a single primary stat, at least not as default, as that hurts some character types and I do think Wisdom is very important for the class's concept. A kit that provides a SAD option however would be great.

Asking for 3 stats to cast effectively (con, cha, wis), just isn't reasonable imo. From my original list of issues it's the high blood magic damage that bothers me the most.
I think it fits the idea of the class to ask for both wis and cha (just as you say), so I wouldn't want to change that. But perhaps bonus spells could come from whichever stat was the highest or something? Could also help.

Rhifox wrote:Shamans being able to eliminate concealment/DR effects in their targets would be a neat niche and make up for their lack of AB buffs.

That's a cool idea and would make the shaman good in a party. Might be too powerful against bosses, though they tend to have pretty high will saves that could negate it.

Rhifox wrote:With regards to its AB, do keep in mind that the shaman becomes considerably more capable in melee with shapechange.

That's true, though imo the stats (other than AC if monk) really aren't that great. And a form with nothing but auto attack is just incredibly dull. The druid just does shapeshifting so much better that I would rather see the shaman being useful with something else. Like being a divine caster primarily focused on offensive spellcasting rather than buffs for smacking things in melee.

NeOmega wrote:How about strike that, and make it so rangers and Druids can only summon their companion once a rest, but spirit shaman can summon and unsummon their telthors, with a 2 minute cool down. Kind of reminiscent of the way telthors would appear in mask of the betrayer.

While that would sorta fit the theme, resummoning companions aren't that useful to anyone, as one needs to give the companion substantial buffs to be effective whenever one brings it out. Which usually means having to rest anyway.

some do it that way. if your animal companion is not focused on in your feats, or you are multiclassed, wasting spells on it doesn't make much sense. my ss with a telthor uses it as i described, because i think it is cool to use the telthor more as a diversion, than a fighter.
Give the telthor 25% concealment... ..and now you got something that makes sense, and is fun.

Rhifox wrote:And speaking of things that don't make sense, it's always bugged me is that shamans seem mechanically expected to do combat in their base form while druids are expected to do combat while shifted, yet druids have medium armor and shamans only have light.

Yeah, the whole class seems hastily planned. Maybe the idea is for it to be a sort of lightly armored divine sorcerer, but the offensive casting abilities just don't match up.

this could tie into the above idea. if the telthor is designed as a diversion more than fighter, it could free up spell choices to use offensively.

Rhifox wrote:With regards to its AB, do keep in mind that the shaman becomes considerably more capable in melee with shapechange.

That's true, though imo the stats (other than AC if monk) really aren't that great. And a form with nothing but auto attack is just incredibly dull. The druid just does shapeshifting so much better that I would rather see the shaman being useful with something else. Like being a divine caster primarily focused on offensive spellcasting rather than buffs for smacking things in melee.

i didnt even know ss shapeshifted, honestly. i dont think they should.


so, afaik, ss in dnd pick the spells they can spontaneously cast before they sleep. This is not feasible mechanically, i am sure, so maybe give them feats as they level up that allow them twice per day uses of ghostly visage, then dispacement and etherial jaunt, or maybe give them some kind of personal rune system, where they can choose feats that allow them to create runes from one of the magic schools* with the appropriate spell casting level, or maybe one above.

*(so a feat doesnt have to be made for every spell)

Ugh, I got a massive headache, so I need something to distract myself from it! I know, I'll argue on the internet! And lo and behold, I am writing a single comment.

Nemni wrote:Fix the spellbook
I have heard that it is not possible to separate the spirit shaman’s spellbook from the druids, which is a shame, since the druid spell book just does not fit the shaman very well. And adding spells that a shaman should have would thus also add them to the druid, which needs no buffs. But at the very least the spell Eagle’s Splendor should be added for the shaman. Every other caster can buff their DC stat, even the bard. Why not the shaman? This spell is a minor buff to the druid, not big enough as argument for keeping it from the shaman.

Yeah, it kind of should be added to the spell list. But until it is, well, I think potions or wands of will just have to suffice...

But with that said, there are always some balance concerns to think about. Anyone can make a charisma based Spirit Shaman 26/Blackguard 4 build and have that high charisma modifier added in as extra AC, which can result in rather high numbers when you factor in the heavy armor, shield, on top of spells such as Tortoise Shell and Halo of Sand, and potentially that Improved Combat Expertise feat as the cherry on top. In otherwords, we are looking at an Armored Sorcerer without the need to acquire Automatic Still Spell epic feats. Now, our spirit Shaman will lack dispelling ability in the form of high caster level Mords - but the Spirit Shaman Spell list does have few of those save or die spells, and Storm of Vengeance is still a nasty AoE spell. Not to mention that they have access to Heals, Harms, and Regeneration, and spells that will act very similar to the stock NWN2's Bigby Six.

You can argue that the Sorcerer build will be stronger of the two, but the Spirit Shaman is not that far behind in power to be honest. The only downside to the charisma based Spirit Shaman/Blackguard is the need to get to level 21 for 9th level spells.

Nemni wrote:Fix the telthor companion
The telthor is a terrible companion. It has worse stats than most of the druid’s choices. It costs a feat to even get, where the druid gets it for free. It costs another feat to bring it to full progression compared to the druids/animal domain clerics, which prevents any other multicasting other than possibly hierophant. Spells like Nature’s Avatar don’t work on it (though that might have been fixed since last I tried, maybe). You don’t get to choose what kind of companion you want, which also limits your RP. And to top it all off you can’t upgrade it to anything similar to the dragon companion in epic levels.

I suggest moving it to full companion progression. I suggest letting the player pick animal (preferably from a spirit theme, but if that’s too much work then just from the standard list). And finally I suggest letting them upgrade it to something sweet in the epics, for a shaman invested in their base class. It can still cost a feat to get, that way the Druids still win

The animal companion buff spells should work for the companion if they do not. I have no idea if it has been fixed. Some have said yes and others have said no over the years and most people do not know.

But yeah, the MotB campaign had several different kind of Telthor mobs to slay, and it would be nice to be able to choose different types of Telthor to summon. Kind of like with all the server specific Summon Monster/Create Undead spells.

As for the full class level progression for our Telthor companion, currently it requires three feats: Telthor Companion, Natural Bond, and Epic Animal Companion that luckily no longer requires that high wisdom ability score. You can get the Telthor Companion feat at level six and it will be lagging behind until you reach level nine and acquire the Natural Bond feat. In otherwords, we are looking at a class based feat that takes a rather long time for it to become relevant. However, if the need for Natural Bond is removed, you do make the Telthor companion more easily accessible for the possible charisma based Spirit Shaman 27/Blackguard 3 build that in the long run could have summons and a Telthor by him inside that Storm of Vengeance spell, not to mention easier time leveling up pre-epic.

Anyhow, if there are going to be changes to the Telthor, I believe there should be some perks for a single class Spirit Shaman, just like it is for Dragon Shaped Druids. For example, they could simply summon more potent spirits.

Nemni wrote:Fix the spirit themed abilities
Chastise spirit, detect spirit, weaken spirit, warding of the spirit. None of these are particularly powerful, but the fact that few creatures on the server are considered spirits at all make these abilities almost useless. I suggest making them affect all undead, fey and outsiders as well. There are plenty more of those sorts.

Just add more ghosts to the server, I'd say!

Nemni wrote:Fix blood magic
The blood magic feat is the one unique thing that the shaman has that is quite powerful. 4 DC and 4 CL is nothing to sneeze at, and it’s a good compensation for the dual stat dependency for an offensive shaman. However, it costs a feat where the druid gets the same DC benefit for free from a spell (owl’s insight). It is frowned upon in RP. It is bugged when resting (dealing damage and interrupting the rest of others). It apparently does not work for epic spells (and why not, when the shadow adepts get their boost and owl’s insight clearly always works?) And most importantly it deals way too much self-inflicted damage. For a shaman just using spells to buff up, the damage is not a big deal, as they can just out-heal it eventually. But for a shaman that plays with offensive spells, it becomes a huge problem. Imagine reaching level 14 and just getting access to the spell firestorm. Now you can deal on average 49 damage in an AoE, assuming the monsters don’t save or have damage resistance. For dealing that damage the shaman takes 34.5 unresistable, unsavable, damage herself.

Even if a single spell is survivable, a caster typically unloads a whole bunch at once when say a boss battle arrives. Imagine using 6 level 9 spells in a boss battle (or another similar combination). That’s 261 damage self-inflicted damage atop of what the boss deals. It’s just silly. Compare that to the arcane bloodmage that would take 36 damage from the same sequence (though of course their version is weaker).

The solution is simply to lower the damage substantially.

Spirit Shamans are not the only people that suffer from low damage of their damage dealing spells. It is the online environment itself, because we cannot have hordes and hordes of low level monsters to be wiped out with a single spell. Not to mention that the mobs on the server do have the tendency of having large amounts of HP to soak up the typical bread and butter AoE spells.

But as for Fire Storm, I would use Maximised Ice Storm instead because it deals 54 points of damage and has no save, or perhaps use an Empored Ice Storm for about the same avarage damage per spell with a spell of a lower level.

Now, another thing to consider is that you can probably get more damage per spell if you consider the spells that deal their damage over time. For example Inferno, a level 5 spell, deals 2d6 damage per round to a single target. At level 14, it deals 98~ damage on avarage, and you can apply metamagic such as Empower, Maximise (not yet, but in tow levels), and Extend to it. Therefore, You can cast it on enemy mobs, and bosses, and simply run around thanks to a level one spell called Longstrider. Lesser and Greater Creeping Cold perform in a similar fashion, and so does Creeping Doom too to for the Spirit Shamans with a high wisdom ability score. Now, while these spells do not always stack with themselves, they do stack with each other and the damage starts to pile up.

For example my former wisdom based Spirit Shaman/Hospitaler could just cast Storm of Vengeance, follow it up with Inferno, Creeping Doom, several Creeping Colds, and pepper foes with his sling or use that 9d6 Acidic Splatter reserve feat. If the damage from these multiple sources was not resisted, it started to pile up rather quickly.

Nemni wrote:Fix the AB issue
Other spellcasters that are supposed to fight with weapons get compensation for being only medium BaB. Bards get inspirations, curse song, haste and greater heroism. Clerics/FvS get too many AB boosters to list. Druids get substantial strength bonus from their wildshape and can use greater magic fang in that form. Shamans need something. I suggest sticking to the blood magic theme and adding an alternate mode to the existing feat that gives something like +4 AB at the cost of 1 self-inflicted damage for every strike. It’s not much compared to the others, but at least it would help.

Wisdom based Spirit Shamans can go the way of Zen Archery, and Thorn Skin spell gives that +1d4 ranged damage.

As for melee based Spirit Shamans, you can go for high strength and use a build such as: Spirit Shaman 12/Hospitaler 10/Hierophant 4/War Priest 4 and have that BAB of 26 with that caster level of 30. Now, you do not exactly need to use Power Attack and you can actually make use of just sword and board because Thorn Skin nets you +1d4 Piercing, Flame Weapon +1d8 Fire, and Storm Avatar is that +3d6 electrical damage per hit.

Thus if you get that mundane +4 Longsword:
1d8 (Longsword)
+4 (Enchantment)
+10 (30 Strength, and you can have higher)
+1d4 (Thorn Skin)
+1d8 (Flame Weapon)
+3d6 (Storm Avatar)
= 36~ (One handed damage on an avarage hit)

It is not the greatest, but you have your shield AC, access to healing, bunch of immunities, and you can still sit inside a Storm of Vengeance to deal even more damage.

Nemni wrote:Fix spirit form5 rounds of concealment that costs a round to cast is worse than a simple displacement wand that drops everywhere. I suggest making it instantly activated.

No harm in that to be honest.


So overall, in my mind, the primary problem of Spirit Shamans in NWN2 is that they have the tendency to be 'close seconds' even if you build them 'right' to match a vision.