Fix the spirit shaman

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Nemni
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Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Nemni »

The spirit shaman isn’t terrible. It has full spell progression, healing capabilities and several good defensive buffs. Offensively it has some real problems though, regardless if it is built for fighting or built for casting. In melee it lacks enough AB to be effective, and in spell slinging it is hindered by being dependent on too many stats (both wisdom and charisma). In my opinion only the sacred fist shaman is truly good, and that is very limiting. Below follows some suggestions to fix the class.

Fix the spellbook
I have heard that it is not possible to separate the spirit shaman’s spellbook from the druids, which is a shame, since the druid spell book just does not fit the shaman very well. And adding spells that a shaman should have would thus also add them to the druid, which needs no buffs. But at the very least the spell Eagle’s Splendor should be added for the shaman. Every other caster can buff their DC stat, even the bard. Why not the shaman? This spell is a minor buff to the druid, not big enough as argument for keeping it from the shaman.

Fix the telthor companion
The telthor is a terrible companion. It has worse stats than most of the druid’s choices. It costs a feat to even get, where the druid gets it for free. It costs another feat to bring it to full progression compared to the druids/animal domain clerics, which prevents any other multicasting other than possibly hierophant. Spells like Nature’s Avatar don’t work on it (though that might have been fixed since last I tried, maybe). You don’t get to choose what kind of companion you want, which also limits your RP. And to top it all off you can’t upgrade it to anything similar to the dragon companion in epic levels.

I suggest moving it to full companion progression. I suggest letting the player pick animal (preferably from a spirit theme, but if that’s too much work then just from the standard list). And finally I suggest letting them upgrade it to something sweet in the epics, for a shaman invested in their base class. It can still cost a feat to get, that way the Druids still win ;)

Fix the spirit themed abilities
Chastise spirit, detect spirit, weaken spirit, warding of the spirit. None of these are particularly powerful, but the fact that few creatures on the server are considered spirits at all make these abilities almost useless. I suggest making them affect all undead, fey and outsiders as well. There are plenty more of those sorts.

Fix blood magic
The blood magic feat is the one unique thing that the shaman has that is quite powerful. 4 DC and 4 CL is nothing to sneeze at, and it’s a good compensation for the dual stat dependency for an offensive shaman. However, it costs a feat where the druid gets the same DC benefit for free from a spell (owl’s insight). It is frowned upon in RP. It is bugged when resting (dealing damage and interrupting the rest of others). It apparently does not work for epic spells (and why not, when the shadow adepts get their boost and owl’s insight clearly always works?) And most importantly it deals way too much self-inflicted damage. For a shaman just using spells to buff up, the damage is not a big deal, as they can just out-heal it eventually. But for a shaman that plays with offensive spells, it becomes a huge problem. Imagine reaching level 14 and just getting access to the spell firestorm. Now you can deal on average 49 damage in an AoE, assuming the monsters don’t save or have damage resistance. For dealing that damage the shaman takes 34.5 unresistable, unsavable, damage herself.

Even if a single spell is survivable, a caster typically unloads a whole bunch at once when say a boss battle arrives. Imagine using 6 level 9 spells in a boss battle (or another similar combination). That’s 261 damage self-inflicted damage atop of what the boss deals. It’s just silly. Compare that to the arcane bloodmage that would take 36 damage from the same sequence (though of course their version is weaker).

The solution is simply to lower the damage substantially.

Fix the AB issue
Other spellcasters that are supposed to fight with weapons get compensation for being only medium BaB. Bards get inspirations, curse song, haste and greater heroism. Clerics/FvS get too many AB boosters to list. Druids get substantial strength bonus from their wildshape and can use greater magic fang in that form. Shamans need something. I suggest sticking to the blood magic theme and adding an alternate mode to the existing feat that gives something like +4 AB at the cost of 1 self-inflicted damage for every strike. It’s not much compared to the others, but at least it would help.

Fix spirit form
5 rounds of concealment that costs a round to cast is worse than a simple displacement wand that drops everywhere. I suggest making it instantly activated.
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Steve
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

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Yep, this comes up about once a year! And not unwarranted!

Having taken up a Spirit Shaman build/character, it is apparent that the SS is not in the same league as Druid/Bard/FS/Cleric...but that said, I doubt it is the Staff's desire to upgrade any Class to be equal to those OP Soloing Classes.

However, a very good job was done in improving Barbarian and Swashbuckler, where both Classes can be said to "hold their own," or at least, provide a decent challenge to the Player to be a near full 30 Barb or Swash (obviously, Barb is better because there are many more Class-specific Feats for Barbarian that make it unique).

But to address some points by Nemni:

* The spirit-themed abilities should affect Elementals
Hidden: show
WHAT IS A SPIRIT?

Several of the spirit shaman's abilities affect spirits. For purposes of the spirit shaman's ability, a "spirit" includes any of the following creatures:

All incorporeal undead
All fey
All elementals
Creatures in astral form or with astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on the Astral Plane)
All creatures of the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures)
Spirit folk and telthors (see Unapproachable East)
Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Chapter 7).
* Spirit Form increase based on total levels of SS, would be nice (like both amount and duration!)

* Guide Magic could be added, which is like a weird Spell or Spell-like ability extra memorization (could just be a Spell-like ability given to the SS)
Hidden: show
Guide Magic (Su): Starting at 10th level, as a free action, a spirit shaman can assign her spirit guide the task of concentrating on a spell or spell-like ability that is maintained through concentration. The spirit shaman can act normally while her spirit guide concentrates on the spell. A spirit guide can concentrate on only one spell at a time. If necessary to maintain the spell, the spirit guide makes Concentration checks for the spirit shaman, using the spirit shaman's normal Concentration modifier. A spirit guide does not have to make Concentration checks for circumstances such as the spirit shaman taking damage. The spirit itself is not present for anyone to interrupt or otherwise interact with.
* I don't think the SS should get high AB. It can multiclass for that.

* Blood Magic is cool...but yes, the dmg part is wicked. Too wicked, in fact, to essentially get the kind of DCs that Blood Mage and Shadow Adept get for NOT taking a big hit. But then again, we all know that Blood Magus is OP and thus, it is doubtful that that will be copied again!

* I like the spellbook, personally. I'd like it if the SS could be on par with the Druid, when it comes to a DC caster, without the big sacrifice to get there—high DCs + few(er) spells, unlike Druid which can just max out on both with Owl's Insight.

* One could easily pump up the SS by allowing it to choose Cleric Domains that are appropriate for the Deity they worship.

* The Telthor Companion could be opened up to the new Summons Radial options, like the Spirit Animal versions. Since Druid/SS do not get Planar binding spells, they perhaps could get a Planar through this "Telthor"-like Feat?

Maybe these ideas help?!?

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Nemni
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Nemni »

Steve wrote:Yep, this comes up about once a year! And not unwarranted!
Indeed, high time to actually do something!
Steve wrote: Having taken up a Spirit Shaman build/character, it is apparent that the SS is not in the same league as Druid/Bard/FS/Cleric...but that said, I doubt it is the Staff's desire to upgrade any Class to be equal to those OP Soloing Classes.
I don't believe that any of my suggestions would make the shaman as good as those classes mentioned above. The comparison is especially easy with the druid, that can basically do anything that shaman can do but better and for less cost. Even with some changes.
Steve wrote: * The spirit-themed abilities should affect Elementals
They do, but that's still very limited for a whole slew of abilities.
Steve wrote: * I don't think the SS should get high AB. It can multiclass for that.
+4 AB at a cost wouldn't make the SS have as good AB as a fighter or another divine caster. Is it the policy to force classes to multiclass to be viable, or not? Even with multiclasses, the current AB barely approaches 40 with full str investment and thus no offensive spellcasting at all.
Steve wrote: * One could easily pump up the SS by allowing it to choose Cleric Domains that are appropriate for the Deity they worship.
That could be cool but I'm not sure it fits the class, as it seems shamans are the divine caster furthest from the actual gods.
Steve wrote: * The Telthor Companion could be opened up to the new Summons Radial options, like the Spirit Animal versions. Since Druid/SS do not get Planar binding spells, they perhaps could get a Planar through this "Telthor"-like Feat?
Yes, maybe giving the shaman a greater planar binding as a SLA instead of a companion.
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Thorsson
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Thorsson »

Can SS still multi-class with Monk?
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Nemni
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Nemni »

Thorsson wrote:Can SS still multi-class with Monk?
Yes.
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LISA100595
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by LISA100595 »

Having played, and still play as my Main, a Spirit Shaman since Mask of the Betrayer came out I approve these messages. :)
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Salaria - Bounty Hunter half-sister of Darius Brothers
Angelina Northstar - Holy Warrior of Tyr / Knight of the Silver Rose
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Thorsson
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Thorsson »

Nemni wrote:
Thorsson wrote:Can SS still multi-class with Monk?
Yes.
Well then I suggest that if the SS gets all these proposed buffs that this ability is removed. Otherwise the place will be overrun by Shamen.
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Nemni
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Nemni »

Well then I suggest that if the SS gets all these proposed buffs that this ability is removed. Otherwise the place will be overrun by Shamen.
Care to back that up with an argument? What exactly about these changes would make a monk/shaman suddenly better than a druid? Or anywhere near as good as it?
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Thorsson
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Thorsson »

Nemni wrote:
Well then I suggest that if the SS gets all these proposed buffs that this ability is removed. Otherwise the place will be overrun by Shamen.
Care to back that up with an argument? What exactly about these changes would make a monk/shaman suddenly better than a druid? Or anywhere near as good as it?
I didn't say it would make it better. It'll just be another overpowered caster.
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Steve
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Steve »

Minimum Caster Levels these days is 25. Go any lower, and you're toast. Even 25 is dangerous if you absolutely rely on Buffs. You can mitigate this by having essentially +4 gear in all your slots if you are so lucky, but then you're not really focusing on supporting your caster abilities to the fullest.

So, that means a minimum of 21 casting levels. And for sake of going High AB, you take a SS 10 / Dragonslayer 10 / Monk 6 / Hierophant 4 build. Well, you can't even do that cause of 3b20, but whatever. Say you just dip for 3 Monk levels. SS 13 / DrS 10 / Monk 3 / Hiero 4. You can go for CL 29, or CL 28 plus Blast Infidel. Those 3 Monk Levels will allow for Owl's Insight to give +6 AC, +1 from Monk as well...I'd say you're better going with a Mithral Full Plate.

SSs are difficult to be an overpowered Caster, if you speak of DCs. Because you MUST maximize CHA, and then put WIS at 16 + 3 WIS item. You lose out on all those Ability Modifier spells, like Wizards and Clerics and Druids and Sorcerers get. Lots of spells matter if you want to be an overpowered caster.

However, you can make a pretty decent Gish out of a Spirit Shaman. It is about equal with Arcane Gishes, but inferior to a basic Cleric, and especially inferior to a Favored Soul or a Bard, both of which can dip heavily into PrCs that synergize with their main stat (like Paladin/Blackguard choice).

You can make a decent SS / Paladin-Blackguard of course...but place anything next to Divine Power casters, and well...lolz.

Talsorian the Conjuransmuter - The (someTIMEs) Traveler

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Thorsson
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Thorsson »

Steve wrote:Those 3 Monk Levels will allow for Owl's Insight to give +6 AC, +1 from Monk as well...I'd say you're better going with a Mithral Full Plate.
You've forgotten the Wisdom Bonus from your base stats and the fact that you don't need to purchase the MFP... I'd say that you weren't better.

There are lots of buffs plus their natural abilities like permanent PfA and concealment. I agree that they're not going to be great offensive casters without major surgery; Favored Souls aren't either. They could be very effective Gishes though. Especially as things keep getting added that work for Gishes (like Hierophant).
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Nemni
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Nemni »

There are lots of buffs plus their natural abilities like permanent PfA and concealment.
What is permanent PfA, and what concealment? :shock:
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Thorsson
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Thorsson »

Nemni wrote:
There are lots of buffs plus their natural abilities like permanent PfA and concealment.
What is permanent PfA, and what concealment? :shock:
Apologies, the PfA is only from Spirits.

Concealment though:

Spirit Form
At 9th level, the spirit shaman gains the ability to become temporarily incorporeal once per day, gaining a 50% concealment bonus for 5 rounds. The spirit shaman can use this ability twice per day at 15th level, and gains another use every 5th Spirit Shaman level thereafter.

Really the class has no place around the Sword Coast; we could say that about a lot of things, but why would a Spirit Shaman come to a place devoid of Spirits?
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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Storm Munin »

Si vis pacem, para bellum Thorsson. ;)
Just because the Sword Coast are not densely populated with spirits bound to places or whatever, does not mean a good spirit shaman would not want to keep it that way and vigorously protect the spirits of the living in order for thus not to befall.
In fact maybe it is the spirit shamen that has kept it thus there, as opposed to the troubles Rashemen experience?
By the rareness argument there should as well be no grey orcs, genasi and the gods know what else on the server.

Personally the major beef I have with the class is the very weak damage it does with Chastise Spirit.
Even it we boosted that to d10 or even d12 I do not see it as a path to server dominion given the number of spirits around.

As for binding other features to the class to the Blood magic feat I fail to see the reason to promote just that way to mechanically play Spirit Shaman.

Yes, the cost for using the Blood magic feat are high, perhaps it could be worked like Hellfire for Warlocks?
Instead of hp loss per spell, we alter it to temporarily loosing 1 CON per spell cast?

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Re: Fix the spirit shaman

Unread post by Flasmix »

As it stands, a ss/monk can get the highest AC in the game. With the healing capabilities they're the best tanks out there. Damage and AB is where they fall off which is why there's pause for concern regarding buffs.
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