Weaponmaster Rework

[Ithilan]

Top tier weapon master builds require massive feat investment, and are rewarded with low saves, low AC, and high crit reliant damage.

Top tier rogue builds put up similar DPS and ac but also have hips, the possibility of bypassing crit immunity, and rerolling saves as well as more skill points and spare feats.

I don't see why people think it is all that powerful.

Maybe level 10 could add a modifier that improves ki crits allowing them to bypass crit immunity?

Excuse my french. But bypassing crit immunity? (do-me) no.

[PlayerDrivenRP]

Top tier weapon master builds require massive feat investment, and are rewarded with low saves, low AC, and high crit reliant damage.

Top tier rogue builds put up similar DPS and ac but also have hips, the possibility of bypassing crit immunity, and rerolling saves as well as more skill points and spare feats.

I don't see why people think it is all that powerful.

Maybe level 10 could add a modifier that improves ki crits allowing them to bypass crit immunity?

Excuse my french. But bypassing crit immunity? (do-me) no.

That is why I was saying being able to take a SINGLE RUIN feat at WM 10. None of the Ruin Feats allow for bypassing of Critical immunity granted by spells on players. Just monster types!

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Sorry, I meant sneak immunity. I'm typing from my phone at work.

[Young Werther]

We had a discussion along similar lines (see: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=55193) and I thought one of the more interesting/fitting suggestions was to do more along the Ki line of abilities.

[PlayerDrivenRP]

We had a discussion along similar lines (see: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=55193) and I thought one of the more interesting/fitting suggestions was to do more along the Ki line of abilities.

I really feel like Ki strike should not be limited uses but should have a cool down timer of like 30 seconds or something. That would be much more useful.

[Ithilan]

We had a discussion along similar lines (see: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=55193) and I thought one of the more interesting/fitting suggestions was to do more along the Ki line of abilities.

I really feel like Ki strike should not be limited uses but should have a cool down timer of like 30 seconds or something. That would be much more useful.

I dont agree with that, since its pretty much just northlander hewing on a 30s CD, id rather see it keep its uses per day and be changed to be gaurenteed critical hits.

[PlayerDrivenRP]

We had a discussion along similar lines (see: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=55193) and I thought one of the more interesting/fitting suggestions was to do more along the Ki line of abilities.

I really feel like Ki strike should not be limited uses but should have a cool down timer of like 30 seconds or something. That would be much more useful.

I dont agree with that, since its pretty much just northlander hewing on a 30s CD, id rather see it keep its uses per day and be changed to be gaurenteed critical hits.

I could get down with guaranteed crits!

[SyntheticRose]

I'd rather see Ki Damage uses be able to fuel feats like Ki Step, as though they were Stunning Fist uses.

Granted, I'd also like to see that for the Phantom's Ki Power uses. Ki Step is fun and great but stupidly locked to Fighter- and Monk-only.

[Ithilan]

I'd rather see Ki Damage uses be able to fuel feats like Ki Step, as though they were Stunning Fist uses.

Granted, I'd also like to see that for the Phantom's Ki Power uses. Ki Step is fun and great but stupidly locked to Fighter- and Monk-only.

I dont see the relation between this and WM, nor should there be any. If anything Ki Strike should be changed of name, to something like "Master Precision" or what not. I dont want synergy wit phantom or monk abilities, that is not were WMs most frequently appear in builds and it would be a completely pointless addition to their kit.

[Blackman D]

Weapons Master is a hell of a strong class as it is. Sure its boring comparef to many other PrCs in terms of fluff., but the gain is exceptional for most melee classes. I can get behind adding something more interesting beyond level 7 but not prior to it. Power critical seems in line even if its an amazing feat for a WM, especially since they wouldnt have to pay the toll of the imp. Critical feat. But WMs dont really need to be buffed.

not sure what you mean, WM benefits from both WM imp crit and the imp crit feat or keen, thats how you get 13-20 threat range

power crit is just a bonus +4 on threat roll

[Ithilan]

Weapons Master is a hell of a strong class as it is. Sure its boring comparef to many other PrCs in terms of fluff., but the gain is exceptional for most melee classes. I can get behind adding something more interesting beyond level 7 but not prior to it. Power critical seems in line even if its an amazing feat for a WM, especially since they wouldnt have to pay the toll of the imp. Critical feat. But WMs dont really need to be buffed.

not sure what you mean, WM benefits from both WM imp crit and the imp crit feat or keen, thats how you get 13-20 threat range

power crit is just a bonus +4 on threat roll

Or Keen being the keyword, taking improved critical as a feat is not a preference of mine when you can obtain it on the weapon item or by a whetstone instead. So it has to be for either power critical or overwhelming critical you would take it.

[chad878262]

Rogue 'builds' are just as feat starved as Weapon Masters, in fact when pretty much any WM build either includes Fighter or is a specialized build from some other class I would say they are more feat starved. A standard Rogue 'build' needs Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF pre-epic. That's 4 feats just to be relevant. Any sneak attack build worth their salt also is going to take Blinding Strike so 5 of 7 pre-epic feats are spoken for. Personally I'm going to do whatever I can to get SF: Hide, SF: Move Silently and Stealthy as well, but gear makes that more of a personal preference than a requirement these days. Weapon Master requires Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack or 6 feats, one more than a basic sneak attack based character. Not much difference, especially when many other PRC's have synergistic requirements, either being met by the same requirements as WM or granting free feats that help meet the requirement.

In addition, Fighter based PRC's are actually quite beneficial to them, bringing something to Fighters that they don't otherwise get (i.e. high will saves, additional abilities not available to fighters, etc.) and there is nothing stopping a Fighter from getting HiPS just like a rogue 'build'. F14/WM7/FB5/SD4 for example. Rogue PRC's are NOTORIOUS for being more beneficial to non-rogues. Most of them give Evasion (which Rogue already gets at level 2) and/or Uncanny Dodge (R4) and many have feat taxes (such as Dodge/Mobility for SD and Whirling Dervish, Weapon Focus for Invisible Blade (in addition to CE, Feint and TWF) or Dash and Skill Focus for the new Thief Acrobat class).

When it comes to Epic Rogues are even worse off. They need Epic Precision, Epic Prowess, Expose Weakness Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and Epic Dodge, which means all 5 epic feats are spoken for unless the build includes R19 in which case they might have one other they can grab. The argument that "they have hips" holds no water because Weapon Masters can (and there are some on the server that do) also have HiPS. Weapon Master is an OFFENSIVE PRC just as Shadow Dancer is a DEFENSIVE PRC. If you want to go for HUGE damage potential you give up survivability. If you instead build a Dwarven Defender or Man at Arms you generally are going to kill stuff much slower, but in turn are very hard to kill yourself.

Weapon Master doesn't need a buff, it's the best at what it does and in a party with someone to buff them up are devastating.

[Wandering_Woodsman]

One of my main characters is a weapons master, and while I did rebuild him 100% using an available free RCR period from the original critical-based high damage (100+ crits) , I think it was a detriment rather then a benefit. GRANTED, I have a few more abilities then I did before (I went with the potential Keen from a whetstone option for example, rather then the skill) I'm not sure I ended up better off.

Regardless, I agree with most of the posts above. Ten levels with only a few feats available is a rather stiff penalty for gettin' into WM, and with a cap of only ten levels too. Granted, my character is now the HIGHEST LEVEL I've ever achieved, but he's not even 20 yet. Soo..go figure.