Character Death (MvP & PvP/CvC)

[metaquad4]

Personally, I have no issues believing that at this time, raise dead, resurrection, etc.. techniques would be wide-spread with the magic level of D&D as well as the level average of this server (even with half-level or twice-level rules, NPC levels are above average for your typical source-book junkie).

I suppose the only issue arises when one considers permastrikes. Why (ICly) are city NPCs special? What can they do to permakill, that other NPCs and players can't? Those are questions we may never get answers to, which throws a wrench in it. I suppose you could always fall back on "the character didn't want to come back", which is expressly rail-roading/godmodding a player character. Or you could say they are being held by a creature in the after-life, who has taken them somewhere else. I suppose in that scenario, it would be easier to suspend one's disbelief (due to it only happening when 3 permastrikes happen). Then again, player characters don't actually need to know that actually happened on the fugue side of things. All they know is "he ded, he ain't coming back". Que IC scholarly debate!

Most NPCs probably won't be resurrected en-mass, and that could be from a mix of things. Maybe some were faithless/lip service dweebs, maybe some decided to pass on, maybe some were snatched up by fiends in exchange for promises of power. There are more than enough reasons why someone can't be resurrected to not run into issues with players purchasing all of the scrolls and trying to raise a city (then again, that would be a fascinating little plot).

So yeah. resurrection techniques exist, there is little point in pretending they are uber rare or what-not. Enjoyable RP will happen none-the-less and it is less of a headache to not have to do mental gymnastics around the whole issue. It's a noble-bright high magic setting, after all. Arm hacked off? Regenerated! The only time something is permanent is when a player (or in rare cases, a DM) wants it to be. That is neither bad nor good (in more cases, it is good since it allows a whole lot of personal flexibility and allows players who enjoy different settings to enact their fantasies).

It is just the setting the server is.

[Steve]

Perhaps if the mechanics were more sound, stable, and balanced (whatever that means to each of us) it would make more sense.

Thank you for all the responses so far. I really want to respond to so many...beginning here.

I actually think the mechanics are pretty sound: we have the age of the Server/Game ( = experience), plus the NWN2DB and our BGTSCC Wiki. Anyone can "dial out" their Character/Build + the CR of the Server Areas plus Sage Wisdom in the OOC parts of our Forum, and you'll have zero surprises, mechanically.

For arguments sake, let's imagine a PnP D&D campaign. Most likely, you'd be playing with Players/Characters within a certain Level range, and, your IG experiences would be arranged around the mechanical limits of the CR of that Campaign. Thus, you, as the Player, would not expect Mobs/encounters really outside your PCs range, nor would you, as the Player, probably expose your PC to actions/decision that would jeopardize your Character's Life, unless that was a Chaotic aspect of their Alignment (a whole other bag we won't open today).

My point is, that with the available OOC information about the Server, you CAN create this experience in the CRPG environment of BGTSCC. Yet...because of Infinite Lives, you as the Player can also "push it" in terms of CR and actions, knowing full well their is no PnP DM that will see that you "pay" for your Characters'—maybe we should say Plaeyers'—idiotic actions, i.e. no consequence behavior, because there are no lives to lose.

Thus, maybe newbs need some mechanical "get out of Death" card, but, I'd argue that after no more than 1 year of playing BGTSCC/NWN2, at the most, would you be incapable of dealing with the mechanics on a pretty advanced level.

Mechanics are important, and stupid accidents do happen like Server Crashes and you find your PC dead, but...I'm also not advocating, at this moment, that some sort of mechanical inforced Death System in installed.

I'm personally more interested in Death by Intentional Action...which I'll addressed later.

[Steve]

I tend to treat death as merely a knockout when soloing/grinding where there are no real RP stakes. With other players, I go with the flow - if they went through the trouble of bringing me back via temple, raise scroll or spell, and are rp'ing it as such, then I go along with that. With DMs ... I do what the DMs tell me. =D

Lately, I have taken the same tact, which is to treat my PC's deaths vs. Mobs at knockouts. But even in RP "stakes," I experience quite a lot of brash and gregarious actions because of the fact that there are Infinite Deaths.

Maybe what I'm missing in my experience of BGTSCC, going on 10 years now, is I've never had a DM communicate to me even something close to "...your PC's actions could result in a Real Death, or, at least a strike."

And because of this, I personally find it difficult to take Death RP, at all, seriously. Because if DMs aren't...well, then, who is?

[Steve]

Oh it's that time of the year again?. Kiran sums it up really, if you want more realistic deaths you are free to kill your character at any point.

Sarcastic comment noted!

[Steve]

As a DM, I usually treat mechanical deaths as knockouts (unless it's death to something like Finger of Death - hard to walk away from that one). I let players do heal rolls to stabilise and then I raise. You shouldn't have to use raise dead scrolls or spells in my events (EDIT: Unless someone dies, in which case I'll demand the raising be RPed appropriately!).

With a DM response, I have a DM-specific question: do you feel that DM Events should be more based on Skill-checks, DCs and non-mechanical role-play, as an alternative and balance to the endless Mobs and constant grinding experience? And thus, DM Events are more...intentional, and with such intention, should we not, as Players, expect a hell of a lot more consequence?

[Steve]

End of the day however I always think it should be the players choice what they want to happen to their character, with perhaps some few exceptions.

I agree, because that provides the widest experience for Players on BGTSCC. However, the exceptions seem...underutilized. And I would like to know why.

[Steve]

I would, however, never enforce such rules upon other players.

I'm just looking for clear Rules, that Players can consider when they attempt to perform an act with their PC.

If such Rules are deemed inappropriate for the BGTSCC, then at least, guidelines in order to allow the wide range of interpretations to not clash, between Players. What I mean by this is what can happen when you have 2 Players, each on the opposite ends of the spectrum, expected to engage and RP with each other, and with difficulty, as one upholds Infinite Lives/Deaths, and the other upholds limitations (be it 3 Permastrikes or whatever).

[Steve]

Personally, I have no issues believing that at this time, raise dead, resurrection, etc.. techniques would be wide-spread with the magic level of D&D as well as the level average of this server... It's a noble-bright high magic setting, after all. Arm hacked off? Regenerated!

It is just the setting the server is.

I've never considered this, but maybe it really should be Listed down, somewhere, officially, if true.

"Medium RP, high-magic setting."

But let me ask you this: what danger/excitement/reason is there, when any old "adventurer" or magic-user can just Resurrect/fix the problem? But you know that I know that you know that magic is the solution, but only up to a point. But that point, or that gray area, is so poorly defined, I'd argue it muds the water and creates far too much frustration in the Player base.

[Kaybrie]

Personally, I have no issues believing that at this time, raise dead, resurrection, etc.. techniques would be wide-spread with the magic level of D&D as well as the level average of this server... It's a noble-bright high magic setting, after all. Arm hacked off? Regenerated!

It is just the setting the server is.

I've never considered this, but maybe it really should be Listed down, somewhere, officially, if true.

"Medium RP, high-magic setting."

But let me ask you this: what danger/excitement/reason is there, when any old "adventurer" or magic-user can just Resurrect/fix the problem? But you know that I know that you know that magic is the solution, but only up to a point. But that point, or that gray area, is so poorly defined, I'd argue it muds the water and creates far too much frustration in the Player base.

Part of why I largely stick to myself when it comes to consequences for actions. I don't insist that others need accept maiming/death/mental debilitation on their characters, and I hope that others don't berate/belittle or otherwise come after me when I accept them on mine.

[Hoihe]

can we stop bringing this *EDITED* topic up over and over again? You do whatever you want but dont rob others of their enjoyment of the game bcause you want grimdark lowmagic dragon age scale settings.

[Balthomer]

Permadeath should be used as a vehicle for rp, not because you think it does a disservice to rp. If you feel that way feel free to delete your chars as they die, why force everyone to dl it? People spend time and effort on their chars.

[Ewe]

Gentleman, I bring you exhibit A from the 3.5e PHB:



As was discussed in discord for over 3 days, restoration would not heal the scars unless cast immediately. However, further PHB research gives no indication that scars are healable what-so-ever. In fact, the only mention of scars in the official rule set is in this section on effects of hit point damage.

Therefore, I suggest: if you die enough times essentially you're just a ball of scars per rules of taking damage. We could do this by a tally system in their character description or something. Think of the endless possibilities of such RP!

[Hoihe]

Oh


I actually recently sent the dms a suggestion.

You ever played a paladin or a paladin-like character that is FORCED to participate in certain events or brutally break character? Well, as it turns out some of these have permastrike risks.

My solution for not losing players is

If one dies in a permastrike risk event in a way that would grant the strike...

they can:
A)take the strike
B)Lose an appropriate amount of levels (I suggedted 1st death 10, 2nd 20, 3rd+ back to level 1 with no xp)
c)Lose your entire inventory. I guess mules and the banking system can mitigate it.

B and C allow people to retain the media with which they experience this unique setting and continue enjoying the relationships and irreproducible sense of accomplishment from certain successes.

B and C would also, hilariously enough, never be taken by our so calles hardcore rpers.



and sod off woth scars. Scars happen because of imperfect healing. Guess what. magic has perfect healing. dont force your bloody grimdark on me. Go play wh40k if you want grimdark.

[Steve]

can we stop bringing this *EDITED* topic up over and over again? You do whatever you want but dont rob others of their enjoyment of the game bcause you want grimdark lowmagic dragon age scale settings.

Well, Hoihe...not every Player gets to essentially have their PC resurrected into another Race...and yet still be able to continue on without the consequences of that action. Or maybe you don't remember??

But really, I'm less interested in how this affects PCs vs. PCs, but more how PCs interact with NPCs and the Setting.

[Steve]

Permadeath should be used as a vehicle for rp, not because you think it does a disservice to rp. If you feel that way feel free to delete your chars as they die, why force everyone to dl it? People spend time and effort on their chars.

Yes, permadeath should be used as a vehicle for RP...but please explain how this actually works? When does it work?

It is not about forcing people, it is about INVITING Players to step up to something.