Rebuilding the RP in the Underdark - How are we doing it?

[Amal'launim]

Thank you... It's rare to hear those words on a online forum. And I guess I can relate to that, we all get a bit worked up over our characters sometimes. That's the weakness we get for putting so much effort into them.

And we'll do our best to respond to such as our characters find appropriate =)


As for CrispyWalrus comment, I don't know anything about the specifics, if there is a individual problem then it shouldn't be discussed openly here on the forum and especially not if the individual in question isn't part of this discussion at all. . .

It is hard to play any other race up of a Lolthite, unless they make themselves valuable. This is true, and... well, pretty much In Character and lorewise correct I'm afraid. Not sure what else you want from that post, but the entire point of House Mori'hyanda being in the city is that they want to change it. The solution to this problem won't be to make another drow city however, make a duergar/svifnerblin city if they need a place to hide.

I am pretty certain that will end up being a ghost city though, and not used much at all. I think the nice thing about Sshamath is that it does provide a place where all can be and IC conflict can thrive =)

[Ansient]

The new players to the Underdark are unaware of the lore. They come here, they have a hard time leveling and finding a group and then they meet Istinid. He's epic and he's got great wizard buffs. He's willing to epic buff the crud out of them, then log in Ryll and group with them, so long as they're willing to join up with your House. It's an incredibly effective recruiting tool, although I don't care for it at all.

Consider it a plot if you will, but fact is there’s a highly charismatic leader running around in the UD and freely converting and/or recruiting new Lolthists. The problem is, the plot is working and no one is doing anything about it. Deal with it ICly is all I can say to it; that’s how House Mori’hyanda got in its current position after all.

I am curious if the one is true or the other, or if the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For someone to log an epic character to buff a party their other character is in is blatant meta-gaming. If that is the case there is nothing ICly about it. I do agree though with the assessment that many Underdark players are unaware of Sshamath's unique lore. It is quite difficult to play any other race down there with all the Lolthites running about calling any but Drow a slave race and expecting these other Underdark players to grovel to them and play as slaves. In many ways it would be better if these Drow had their own city.

Istinid only helps people after he's determined that they are, or profess and appear to be, worshipers of Lolth. Especially if they are female, or males that seem particularly worthy. This is always done in character, per his orders. It's not metagamed.

When I play Ryl, it's usually to accompany someone who has already applied to the house, and especially females who've recently joined the house. He's their servant. Chessala in particular most directly "owns" him, and I'll generally switch to him whenever she's in the game.

I'm not going to make any apologies for playing characters who serve others of their creed and form a successful faction around it.

[Eviloth]

Again Crispy I am not sure if Istinid does such things. Anytime I party up with Ryl, it is because I run into him without generally using PM's. The Underdark is only so big and some areas I know he'll not be grouping in at all.

However, everytime I have seen Ryl, he has a very nice build going and he could probably solo the area by himself.

The Loltholites deeming everyone as slaves. I would say that regardless of the rules of the city of Sshamath, more then likely in every drow's mind, all are inferior to them - except for a few. Pride and over dose amounts of pride are more then likely installed in them, along with the beatings in a traditional drow city.

Also, what mage doesn't think he is or could ascend to God status? Since the city is chuck full of mages, I would say the notion that instead of everyone coming into the city being slaves, the mages, just think they are all puppets for them. Either way, you are inferior in one term or another, by the Loltholites or the Conclave. I guess it just means, what ass do you like kissing better? j/k

No but really, the House is just that, a House. I wasn't recruited by them, I was pressing them to allow me to join. I think I presented myself good with RP and have a great time working with the House and interacting also with Bregan D'arthe(however you spell it)

[Ansient]

I do agree though with the assessment that many Underdark players are unaware of Sshamath's unique lore. It is quite difficult to play any other race down there with all the Lolthites running about calling any but Drow a slave race and expecting these other Underdark players to grovel to them and play as slaves. In many ways it would be better if these Drow had their own city.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't know anyone who comes to Sshamath unaware of its unique lore who doesn't learn about it shortly.

Being aware of how Sshamath is organized doesn't mean you have to play a character who likes it that way. A fair number of low levels are played as immigrants, from drow cities that are not so unique.

If there's a dearth of people wanting to play natives of Sshamath, perhaps it's because this is not a very exciting role. The Conclave supposedly lords over everything, yet there's no direct PC involvement in it. They are all NPCs, controlled by DMs and very rarely present.

I'm mainly interested in traditional drow culture, so I have had 95% of my fun within the subculture Mori'hyanda offers. But maybe some other players are not as particular as me. Maybe they'd be glad to play a Sshamathan--if there was something for them to get involved with. But I see little for it.

About a year ago I created my first character on this server, Zyil, who was not a Lolthite. And most of the UDers at the time weren't Lolthites. But many of us became bored with our inability to do anything of substance within Sshamath, due to it all being run by an NPC conclave.

So we choose something more familiar. A group of about five of us banded together, made new characters, and formed Mori'hyanda so we'd have an organization our characters could really take ownership of, develop, and play out fun stuff with. I figured that's what this game was all about.

Now if you don't feel like joining the Lolthite scene, why not get a group together and form your own, different faction? Why does everything have to be about hating us and wishing we'd disappear to our own city?

[Eviloth]

I agree on that, Sshamath's lore is about the conclave ruling, but this is a world of change, correct? If so, the same reason why House Sshamath fell many years prior, is indeed a big change to how the normal drow status is run when the Conclave took up power.

Also, however on the same notion of change, the Conclave could infact allow the House Mori'hyanda to build within the city or least they could endur what the city of Eryndlyn deals with, a constant religious civil war. The conclave may loathe House Mori'hyanda, however, they do not want a war of any kind disrupting their trade and this is where the Conclave is weak. Gold. However not to say the Conclave is truly a week force, but everything has a flaw in the chain. Anything that could possibly disrupt trade is not good for business. And from what I have seen, it is all about keeping Business Good.

And according to the FR Underdark book ( http://issuu.com/misantropia/docs/d20-- ... -underdark ) on page 176 House Sshamath still exist, however, it is a mere building with drow that live with no authority. So to say that the City of Sshamath lacks ANY Houses I would debate that, however, I know it lacks the Houses of other drow cities in power and multitude.

I personally think House Mori'hyanda has ever right to be here, so the other nemesis forces of the House need to recruit if they want to be a competitive player lead group.

Vallyn, start cracking on finding more Lolth-hatin', Spider Queen bashing Ilythiiri

[Vallyn]

I expected the heavies from Mori'hyanda to weigh in on their support of their House's existence in the city. That's not surprising. It's good to see a new face in the UD posting here too. Hopefully more folks get involved (if they can get past the first two pages of the thread that is)

Again, I apologize for the accusatory tone in my previous posts. I'd like to turn this thread around and see how we can move forward from here, whether it's through cooperative RP or conflict RP. The tone of my questions was harsh, the way I phrased them was harsh, but they were serious questions.

It sounds to me like Mori has no intention of finding another city, they want to stay in Sshamath and they want to continue recruiting and gaining in power. I personally feel that this will lead to conflict RP and I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that at least Amal'launim welcomes that. I'm all for it too, although it's very clear who the victor would be right now. Given that DM's allowed both Quellar to be established, it's rather unlikely that the Conclave will decide to wipe them off of the map, even if a new city were created, given the current roleplay right now.

I think that leaves us with conflict RP.

Istinid, my character Vallyn, has had a chip on his shoulder about Lolth's Yathrin since before he arrived in Sshamath. He hates them with a rare passion and he's got the low charisma guaranteed to get him into trouble around them too. I play that up, it's a dump-stat and I make sure to play him that way. You're well-aware of that.

The lack of significant Conclave interaction is somewhat difficult at times. "Tsabrak's Warning" was a direct result of conflict between myself, Istinid and Calitha, and that's certainly Conclave interaction, but it's the only thing I know of. Tsabrak put his vampiric foot down rather firmly in that one. Other than that, and perhaps DM events long before I joined the server, I'm not aware of any Conclave interaction with the players. Furthermore, no Player-Character should be on the Conclave's Ruling Council. They're a true oligarchy and the benefits would be far too unfair. (Think of it as if your Player-Character was King Azoun, The Simbul, Szzass Tam, or something equally ridiculous.) Leave the Conclave to the DM's.

So we're not likely to have DM oversight in any conflict RP we dream up, unless someone calls in a DM to adjudicate questionable pvp. It's going to take a huge amount of time and effort to recruit, level, and gear enough epics to take on Mori in any direct fashion, especially considering the number of divine casters they have. Bregan D'aerthe and the Charnage Maelthra should both consider actively recruiting folks.

I guess I'll try and think of some way to launch a guerilla warfare campaign of my own. I'll have to recruit more Spider-Kisser haters to mess with the Quellar. (and it's not just Mori, Istinid, it's Noqu'afen too)

[gamerguy1]

Again, I apologize for the accusatory tone in my previous posts.

Personally I think its constructive criticism. One shouldnt have to think that making an effort even if it seems negative is in any way misplaced.

I am going to read over these posts a little more carefully when I have time. Its good to know that there really is a lot going on in the UD.

It seemed that Glauras Wings forums were a little slow. My cleric easily can play as a one man show, but if anyone would like too lend him a hand to help him become more involved, it would be appreciated. I am dependent on the boards for what goes on being that weekends are the best time for me to play. Now that the server has been more stable (less crashes) I am having a lot more fun playing NWN2.

When I play next (I hate using I, but it is hard to avoid while critiqueing this thread) it will probably be my surface character. The OP has done a great job bringing out a lot of good things the UD has going for it.

[Molag__Bal]

Sadly, the Charnag and Bregan just cannot compete with the free buffs that Mori offers. It's like offering a kid broccoli in one hand and ice cream in the other. Of course, it's not like new players would choose to join a house simply for free buffs. More likely they join Mori because it is the most active faction, and offers a greater chance for RP.

If Zordem is in fact leaving, things don't look good for the Bregan. I haven't seen adzling in game for a month or so, and he's the head of the Charnag. He also decides which new recruits get to join. I suppose Izzy could take that over in his absence.

Once the UD get's the promised upgrade(s), I suspect things will improve. I'd love to see a strong Mori, Bregan and Charnag in Sshamath that can go about back stabbing and vying for power.

[CrispyWalrus]

Boy a lot of comments directed at me... I was merely quoting to question what I had quoted. I have no personal knowledge of the characters involved. I even suggested the reality might be a blend of the two. I was looking for clarification about the two directly conflicting statements made by those I quoted. For if the first statement quoted were true then I do see such character swapping as metagaming if it is done to facilitate buffing or party accommodation, regardless of whether the characters are played IC when they are the active character.

And as to my agreeing with the statement someone else had made about many underdark players not knowing the lore-- I do agree with it. I've had my own experiences of meeting Drow who wanted my Duergar to join their party as a slave. Duergar might be second-class citizens in Sshamath and live in a ghetto but iirc they are not slaves. It gets tiresome when everyone plays their Drow that way ignoring this Sshamath lore, which is documented in sourcebooks and on these forums. Perhaps offering to take on a PC Duergar as a Guard or such might be a bit more player-friendly than attempting to collect slaves. Slave RP might be for a select few, but is a turn-off to the majority.

It's also rather easy for such a Drow taking this superior position to say "why not get a group together and form your own, different faction?" but the fact is that when the majority of the UD population play Drow like this-- not acknowledging Sshamath's slavery laws, its open trade with every race of the UD (even traditional Drow enemies) and constantly denigrate other races-- it makes the prospect of enough players of these other races even sticking around very slim indeed. From the comments made by other Drow players not a diehard Lolthite or a member of a Quellar it is even tough for them if they don't play along this Lolthite Quellar way. The situation just feeds itself by driving away all those who would play anything different.

[Bulldog241]

The new players to the Underdark are unaware of the lore. They come here, they have a hard time leveling and finding a group and then they meet Istinid. He's epic and he's got great wizard buffs. He's willing to epic buff the crud out of them, then log in Ryll and group with them, so long as they're willing to join up with your House. It's an incredibly effective recruiting tool, although I don't care for it at all.

As a member of House Mori (I play a Mori slave, Hunar), I've had quite a bit of intereaction with both Ryl and Istind. Istind has buffed me into godhood at times, and then at other times I've met up with Ryl and we've grouped.

However never ONCE has he buffed me with Istind, and then logged in with Ryl so we could party. Not. Once.

I've always found his RP to be above reproach, and I've never witnessed him doing anything metagaming like this. Are you saying you've actually seen him do this?

That's a fairly serious acusation in my eyes, and if it's not true I would like you to retract it. Uncalled for slandering will derail this topic faster then just about anything else.

[Ansient]

And as to my agreeing with the statement someone else had made about many underdark players not knowing the lore-- I do agree with it. I've had my own experiences of meeting Drow who wanted my Duergar to join their party as a slave. Duergar might be second-class citizens in Sshamath and live in a ghetto but iirc they are not slaves. It gets tiresome when everyone plays their Drow that way ignoring this Sshamath lore, which is documented in sourcebooks and on these forums. Perhaps offering to take on a PC Duergar as a Guard or such might be a bit more player-friendly than attempting to collect slaves. Slave RP might be for a select few, but is a turn-off to the majority.

So if you're not a slave... you're free to go, right? Complaining on forums because others' characters would rather treat you as one is rather droll. If anyone tries to "enslave" you within Sshamath, then you should protest. And you should do it in character, not here. But if it's in the tunnels or somewhere private, all bets are off.

It's also rather easy for such a Drow taking this superior position to say "why not get a group together and form your own, different faction?" but the fact is that when the majority of the UD population play Drow like this-- not acknowledging Sshamath's slavery laws, its open trade with every race of the UD (even traditional Drow enemies) and constantly denigrate other races-- it makes the prospect of enough players of these other races even sticking around very slim indeed. From the comments made by other Drow players not a diehard Lolthite or a member of a Quellar it is even tough for them if they don't play along this Lolthite Quellar way. The situation just feeds itself by driving away all those who would play anything different.

Who's not respecting Sshamath's laws in Sshamath? And if they aren't, why don't you deal with it as such?

It seems you're expecting Sshamath's laws to apply out in the Underdark, and that's just not the case. Sshamath might send some patrols nearby from time to time, but these areas are governed by the law of the Underdark--which is to say no law except might.

Keep in mind that laws against slavery are laws against actual enslavement--not laws against using the word "slave," refering to someone as your slave, treating them as an effective slave, etc, even when under the law they may be just a servant.

Also keep in mind that visitors who are not citizens of Sshamath are allowed to keep actual slaves.

If your hope is that all the arrogant drow stop treating "lesser" races as their subjects, you're effectively hoping for something not in keeping with lore. It's not going to happen. Being a non-drow near a drow city is never going to be all that pleasant, even one as ostensibly open and non-Lolthian as Sshamath.

But instead of dealing with the adversity in character, as is proper, you'd rather complain here and say we shouldn't be playing characters who denigrate other races. I'm sorry you don't enjoy it, but it's how things are supposed to be. If you're wondering where it originates...

The taint of Wendonai allows him to hear the thoughts of the tainted. It is only the Ilythiiri who carry it, and it gives them their cruel and arrogant nature.

[Ansient]

Sadly, the Charnag and Bregan just cannot compete with the free buffs that Mori offers. It's like offering a kid broccoli in one hand and ice cream in the other. Of course, it's not like new players would choose to join a house simply for free buffs. More likely they join Mori because it is the most active faction, and offers a greater chance for RP.

I have seen about seven new Noqu'afin running around these past couple days, which would seem to disprove your notion that there's something particular to Mori'hyanda going on. It would seem more particular to people finding enjoyment in playing Lolthites. Imagine that!

Organizing new faction activity is entirely possible. What you need is player interest.

My first character on this server was planning to to join the Charnag shortly after adzling formed it, but unfortunately I wasn't having enough fun and ended up retiring him.

[CrispyWalrus]

So if you're not a slave... you're free to go, right? Complaining on forums because others' characters would rather treat you as one is rather droll. If anyone tries to "enslave" you within Sshamath, then you should protest. And you should do it in character, not here. But if it's in the tunnels or somewhere private, all bets are off.

My intent was not to complain but to point out the uphill challenge facing anyone who does not play a Quellar Lolthite Drow and why it is a self-replicating circumstance. And again all you can say is do it IC. I was IC and I am free, right? I had thought so too, but as I walked away and approached the trans down to Sshamath the Drow party I encountered (when they stole a bat kill that I had nearly dead at the edge of the open area and they then ignored my IC question about the kill steal) opened up with a fireball and killed my new Level 1 char (and sent him to the Fugue too, which I am still miffed about and not even sure how that happened). So who do I protest to IC and how exactly IC if I am dead?

I do agree with you that "if it's in the tunnels or somewhere private, all bets are off," but that is not my experience. This was Varella's Passage in sight of the NPC guards, which seems to me as much part of Sshamath as the Farmlands are Baldur's Gate. (It also seems rather bad RP to ignore the NPC guards there-- like attacking someone right in front of the Fist). I thought my location and walking away would be an out (not that I even needed one as there wasn't any RPed hostility) but I was attacked from behind nonetheless. I guess my biggest issue is that this all occurred within one hour of my first ever login with that new character, my first UD login in at least six months, and within sight of the trans into Sshamath. I can go weeks on the surface without someone pushing PvP on me, but UD RP seems unable to exist without it.

Who's not respecting Sshamath's laws in Sshamath? And if they aren't, why don't you deal with it as such?

It seems you're expecting Sshamath's laws to apply out in the Underdark, and that's just not the case. Sshamath might send some patrols nearby from time to time, but the place is governed by the law of the Underdark--which is to say no law except might.

Keep in mind that laws against slavery are laws against actual enslavement--not laws against using the word "slave," refering to someone as your slave, treating them as an effective slave, etc, even when under the law they may be just a servant.

Also keep in mind that visitors who are not citizens of Sshamath are allowed to keep actual slaves.

So again please suggest some way for dealing with it as such. I realize that Sshamath's laws do not apply out in the Underdark, but I had only gone from Varella's Passage to the area marked something like North of Varella's Passage (where the beetles are). I had hardly ventured far from Sshamath at all. This attack was in Varella's Passage. So how far is Sshamath's reach? Baldur's Gate limits are acknowledged to extend two zones. Is it the same for Sshamath?

Your use of the word slave is just so much semantics too. No one suggested my character be their servant-- slave was all that was mentioned to me (and then only after the fact in tells to justify their action). If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. I know that visitors who are not citizens of Sshamath are allowed to keep actual slaves, and last time I checked with no other locales all PC Drow still live in Sshamath.

[Ansient]

You are correct that it's wrong for people to try and forcibly enslave you next to the guards in Varalla's passage.

And you should tell them as much. Tell them OOC if they've killed you. And then go about your business. They're not allowed to keep bothering you if they've just killed you. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake twice.

Simple mistakes like this shouldn't ruin your experience, just have your character forget the scene (death amnesia) and move on.

[Molag__Bal]

Actually, if you get blasted by a fireball without any RP leading up to it, you may as well report them to the staff. That's not the kind of behavior the UD needs, it will just drive away potential new players.