DM Events and new players

[TravelingVagrant]

There's some points that have been made in here that I strongly agree with, and some that I don't, and for some reason I constantly feel compelled to give my two cents because I'm a weenie. An opinionated weenie at that!

I agree with Alexander's offered suggestion of throwing smaller, low level events at low level players. I can say as someone who is currently level 15 (and the highest I have been is 19,) that levelling to 30 is a massive time commitment, which could absolutely be alleviated by these smaller events with cool XP/item rewards (that are level appropriate, of course. No need for Jimmy the level 8 fighter to have a +4 Adamantium Vorpal Greatsword). But there are definitely things that can help.

I even have an example of this happening once - myself and another person were grinding wyverns. A totally exciting activity that everyone does all the time which can absolutely be uh.. not so engaging. Suddenly, massive wyverns started appearing! Wyverns with different colors! More powerful wyverns. It was so cool to be able to fight something else, to break up the monotony, and not only that - have a little RP thing to do while we were doing an otherwise boring activity. And then to top it off, we each received an XP reward that helped us along our way. Thanks DM Gixustrat - this is the type of thing that I would love to see more of.

Now, at that note - I think the suggestion that people join factions is (albeit unintentionally) an idea that could be toxic for the server. What do I mean by this, you might ask! Well, if every player only joins established factions, where do the new factions come from? How does the server's community evolve if everyone only joins established factions? Sure, you can absolutely make friends in those guilds, and I am sure that they are full of really cool people, but at the end of the day - not every adventurer suits those companies. Maybe they want to strike out on their own, make a name for themselves, and start their own faction.

But if the reason given for why they aren't included in events is because 'you aren't apart of X faction' - they will never be able to accomplish that goal.

Everyone should have a chance to be a hero, if they want to be.

Now to address another point - to message the DMs to ask for events. I can say as someone who has been around for roughly a year or so - I have never been comfortable with the idea of bothering a DM directly to ask them to do something for me. I was always under the impression that this was an evolving world, and that the DMs offer events dynamically, where they want to, without the input of players. Of course this is not correct, but how was I, or any other new player for that matter, to know that?

This goes back to my original point - if a veteran player is having an event that they have asked for, and are planning it with a DM outside of the game, I strongly believe that if there are other players who stumble into it and want to participate, that hand should be extended to them from the veteran players. In my view, veteran players should be the ambassadors of the community - extending their hand to new players to help them get involved. Billy the Archmage is the Archmage, he should be focusing on helping people's journey to embracing the magical nature of the world - not jumping in to take over for Jerry the sorcerer when Jerry is exploring the magic ruins.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Now, at that note - I think the suggestion that people join factions is (albeit unintentionally) an idea that could be toxic for the server. What do I mean by this, you might ask! Well, if every player only joins established factions, where do the new factions come from? How does the server's community evolve if everyone only joins established factions? Sure, you can absolutely make friends in those guilds, and I am sure that they are full of really cool people, but at the end of the day - not every adventurer suits those companies. Maybe they want to strike out on their own, make a name for themselves, and start their own faction.

But if the reason given for why they aren't included in events is because 'you aren't apart of X faction' - they will never be able to accomplish that goal.

Everyone should have a chance to be a hero, if they want to be.

I don't believe anyone here ever said that. The idea behind saying "Join a faction," is that when you join/make a faction, you're providing a space for multiple PC's with similar goals to align and plot together. This makes things easier for the DM's, who are then more inclined to get involved. Because let's face it, we only have so much time and attention to give. Thus, when you join (or make) a faction, you're increasing your chances of being a 'hero'.

Now to address another point - to message the DMs to ask for events. I can say as someone who has been around for roughly a year or so - I have never been comfortable with the idea of bothering a DM directly to ask them to do something for me. I was always under the impression that this was an evolving world, and that the DMs offer events dynamically, where they want to, without the input of players. Of course this is not correct, but how was I, or any other new player for that matter, to know that?

That's what the forums are for! Or messaging other players. In fact, there's an entire section of the wiki that explains how DM'ing here works. And you can even PM us when we're on, because we're more than happy to answer your questions in person. Because if you're uncomfortable asking for events or attention, and refrain from doing so, we will never know it.

[Planehopper]

First of all, mad props to Trinket for starting the conversation and doing so in a positive manner. This sort of thing comes up, a lot more than it should, and its usually a finger-pointing shitshow. I appreciate the courage it takes to raise your hand and say "I am not super happy" when you risk alienation, especially when alienation is the root of the complaint. Doing it with calm civility is very appreciated.

My quick take on this is that, regardless of where upon the spectrum you land (you see the exclusion as a real issue or you see it as a non-issue), this topic has come up enough that its obviously something that should be acknowledged and addressed.

When I log in (as anything but a new player myself) and see the same players, often with the same characters, in DM areas or I read the forums and its the same people that are mentioned in the major arcs of nearly all campaigns, it creates the perception that those people/characters are more of a focal point than any others.

That perception matters, and it especially matters for new players who, unlike me, have not hardened themselves to that reality of the server.

There are possible solutions, many of which have been mentioned already. I think my keys points would be:

• Speed up the response time to DM requests. If 'request action by the DM team' is the answer to seeing DM action, then none of us should have outstanding issues for 4-6 weeks without a response while others enjoy frequent interaction. Based on recent conversations I don't think that this is uncommon (if you think it is, maybe read point 4). It kills momentum and it disheartens players. If it is a faction/guild with multiple people, there is no quicker way to stall out a guild than to sit on requests and leave them in limbo about where to go next.
• More one-off events. I know campaign arcs are fun, but when everything is something larger and on a grand scale, they tend to drag in the same people every time. I would love to have more one-off events than events that play into the arcs involving the same people, most of the time.
• Purposefully include at least one new faction, and one new unaffiliated character, in all that you do. This may not always be possible, but it certainly is something that should be worked toward. This goes for players and DMs. I know, I know, some of you are chomping at the bit to say "I do that!". Well..
• Acknowledge your privilege. It is ironic that some of the people that talk about inclusion the most are the same ones that are perceived to be getting most of the attention. The perception that the downplaying one's own involvement in the perceived problem can give is not a positive one. There is a whole other world out there of players that aren't having the same experience that you are.

All that to say that the 'fix' should be holistic, and I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I've been a DM, and I know how overworked and underappreciated it can feel. I know how PMs can pile up quickly. I know that its hard to find creative juice when you aren't vibing with a player or guild concept. I've led guilds. It's as painful as it is rewarding, in a mostly equal proportion. Trying to keep people engaged is really hard when you feel like, or perceive there to be, brick walls. Intended or not. And I've been an unaffiliated/unguilded 'faction' trying to eek out an existence. It can be a barren world in that situation. Communicate and collaborate, and do it with self-awareness as to your role in the system that creates the perceptions.

I say none of this to lay it at anyone's feet. Its a joint effort that we all have to undertake, players and DMs, but this is a conversation as old as the server itself and it could use some attention.

[TravelingVagrant]

By and large, I'll echo sentiments expressed above. But something that I've run into a few times is players simply ignoring me when I offer a plot hook. Which is fine, they're perfectly in their right to do so, but it makes me less inclined to offer that player a plot hook in the future.

To be honest, I dislike public events that cover large swaths of the population. Rather, I enjoy running small, faction focused plots with a focus on PnP style play. While people certainly have their preferences when it comes to DMs, I have preferences too; namely puzzles, character driven plots, and small group interactions. It's why you'll rarely see me do public events and even more rarely put a shout out for random encounters with half the sever hopping on.

I cannot recommend joining a faction enough, and when doing so, coming up with some kind of goal that you want to move forward with to request an event for.

To be honest, I was mostly replying to this post in particular. I don't mean to call you out, Grinning Death, I just wanted to clarify what I was referring to.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I figured as much! Which is why I went ahead and clarified my initial post.

[Heretic]

I personally understand the OP’s sentiment and I say this being a veteran player with a fairly consistent on-line presence that actively RPs and engages other players (in her own unique way), but rarely has major plotlines foisted upon my character. It’s been my general observation on this server that many of the major (surface) plot-lines do tend to consistently orbit around the same guilds/players. I’m sure there are probably legitimate reasons for this as cited in previous post but the overall optics gives a different impression to the casually observer regardless of whether the perception is justified.

I’m of the opinion that active RP and engagement (both in-game and on the forums, to exclude discord) should be enough to garner DM attention and shouldn’t be necessarily predicated on what faction or PCs you elect to ally or associate with which is the impression I’m often left with absent underlying context.

2) Be some place with a lot of people. Most DMs seem to want to involve as many players as possible in an event they are running, with the exception of some that may have an attendance limit for game balance reasons by the DM's request. This can be difficult for less social characters, but even then it's quite possible to be someplace while not being a social butterfly and nobody is really going to give you a hard time about it.

I take slight issue with this sentiment, I’m not of the opinion that a player should have to always be anywhere specific to find themselves involved in a major plotline especially if that player has no IC reason for being in said location or with said factions. Even more so if this character is already an active RP’er. Nor should the germination of a new major plotline cater to a specific/individual faction which is the perception I’m often left with just by casually looking at this threads such as this viewtopic.php?f=15&t=73788. Here one can’t help to walk away with that perception however unjustified and maybe it's also an issue of not picking up on in-game cues.

I understand there are possibly underlying circumstances why this perceived disparity exist but the overall optics simply paint a different picture and when more than a few people (such as myself) arrive at this perception it points to an issue that perhaps needs to be seriously addressed.

There are other rabbit holes that I can possibly go down as it relates to this topic but I'll just end it with my 2cents on the counter.

[Steve]

Let’s also just identify the objective not-in-the-most-active Timezone issue, when it comes to DM Events and getting in plots.

The Server has historically had the majority of DMs in USA evening activity, so that is GMT -5 to -8, and puts at least half the player population at a disadvantage to “falling into” Events.

The solution might be more DMs, but that possibility always bottlenecks at application and/or approval.

So, just to say, bad timing can also drive an experience of “getting Events.”

[zhazz]

One thing I have noticed, from the viewpoint of my side as a DM, is that a lot of players tend to bring events and plot items to specific groups (Like the Radiant Heart.) whether that group asks for it or not. This is a pretty pervasive habit I have seen pretty consistently on the server over my time here. I am not certain why so many players want to bring the events or hooks that they get to other more established players or groups, but it keeps happening.

As an example, I went out of my way during my previous Vampire series of events to give an character who was not level 20+ and who was not affiliated with any guild, a central plot item and hook in order to draw them and their newer group into the plot, and they promptly gave the item over to an established level 30 character within 24 hours. Effectively removing themselves from the main parts of the plot.

The answer to this is an easy one to be honest. Though it needs to be broken into a few segments to properly explain it.

The Radiant Heart is a paladin order, and in the minds of most people, paladins are the good guys whom deal with monsters. Though it is my understanding that the active Radiant Heart guild on the server is actually the Radiant Heart Auxiliary — a non-paladin support branch of the main chapter, making the name is a bit misleading/confusing at times.

Similarly the Radiant Heart, with the aforementioned reputation, has been the most stable good-guy guild for years. While it too experience times of non-activity, it does less so than other guilds, such as the Order of the Silver Rose. As a result it is more likely to encounter members of the Radiant Heart to ask for guidance and counsel.

Additionally there's a slight issue of repetitive tropes within the DM team. It has become a sort of running joke among many players that regardless of plot the DMs will use either fiends, undead, or dragons. There are a few outliers, of course, but the vast majority of foes encountered in DM events tend to be the aforementioned three. This further enhances the paladin fantasy, and thus a need to get the Radiant Heart involved. Using more mundane monsters, or even non-monsters such as humans might help avoid events being passed on to the specialists.

Finally there's also a matter of character and guild goals to consider. Not every character or guild wants to deal with the big stuff. They might wish to play a supportive role, and be recognized for such, but their main focus is on something else entirely. Getting involved in the big stuff, while welcome, does eventually take away time and resources to focus on said goals. As such there are times, though not every time, where a character or guild will simply pass on the torch, so they can focus on what is important to them.

[Tanlaus]

A lot of good points have been addressed and, like others have said before, I wasn’t really planning to respond here but I figured maybe my own experiences can be helpful, hopefully... maybe not, who knows. Anyway...

While not a new player I’m primarily a UD player which is, historically, arguably worse when it comes to being included in anything related to anything.

Recently there has been an uptick in DM activity in and around the UD for which all us lonely chimney elves are eternally grateful and while primarily the credit goes to both DM Spartacus and DM Spectrum for including us in their overarching plot- not to mention some one offs here and there with other DMs- one thing we, as UD players have done is try to be pretty active with our forum RP.

Sometimes it’s public posts and often it’s forum PMs with all of the relevant (as in present for the event) players and whoever was DMing at the time. These are entirely RP posts centered around what actions our characters took after the event and/or involving any recovered plot devices.

I feel like this kind of communication is the best way to further not only one’s involvement in a plot but the plot itself. It gives DMs something to work with.

Need more information about some plot involving the Yuan-ti? Write a post about your ranger setting up a hidden lookout in the Serpent Hills watching for troop activity. What is Amn doing now? Write a post about your character spending time in Nashkel quietly listening to the locals.

I’m not saying make stuff up out of whole cloth, but if you get something out of an event, like a direction to go in, put some effort into following up. My own experience has been that it is extremely rewarding and can often (not always but often) help shape the way things play out.

And just to be clear I’m not saying “hey newbie it’s on you to get involved.” But more that you can sit around the campfire talking all day about the thing that just happened and what you want to do about it, but your actions and/or intentions have no chance of being incorporated into a plot if the DM doesn’t know about them.

To me forum RP is really a bridge between an online PW and table top. In a table top game nothing happens without the DM knowing it. On a PW most of what happens happens without a DM being aware. Forums are a way of making them aware. And can also be kind of fun. Not that you can or should expect a response to every post but it is something that I believe (and correct me if I’m wrong) is appreciated in both sides of the player/dm divide.

[Xorena]

To me forum RP is really a bridge between an online PW and table top. In a table top game nothing happens without the DM knowing it. On a PW most of what happens happens without a DM being aware. Forums are a way of making them aware. And can also be kind of fun. Not that you can or should expect a response to every post but it is something that I believe (and correct me if I’m wrong) is appreciated in both sides of the player/dm divide.

I would like it to work this way. Forum admins for respective factions need to make sure the DMs in question have access to their forums. DMs cannot automatically read faction posts (perhaps by design so they don't get IC spoilers from opposing factions for their PCs). Otherwise we're sending PMs to the DM responsible for the plot, which sometimes seems hit or miss. I just spent a while trying to tame my inbox and I've still got a long way to go.

Forum RP is great if you have a faction with time zones all over the world. It gives them a chance to respond and participate even if you barely see people in game.

[Tanlaus]

To me forum RP is really a bridge between an online PW and table top. In a table top game nothing happens without the DM knowing it. On a PW most of what happens happens without a DM being aware. Forums are a way of making them aware. And can also be kind of fun. Not that you can or should expect a response to every post but it is something that I believe (and correct me if I’m wrong) is appreciated in both sides of the player/dm divide.

I would like it to work this way. Forum admins for respective factions need to make sure the DMs in question have access to their forums. DMs cannot automatically read faction posts (perhaps by design so they don't get IC spoilers from opposing factions for their PCs). Otherwise we're sending PMs to the DM responsible for the plot, which sometimes seems hit or miss. I just spent a while trying to tame my inbox and I've still got a long way to go.

Forum RP is great if you have a faction with time zones all over the world. It gives them a chance to respond and participate even if you barely see people in game.

That can end up being a bit double edged as it then means you need to be in an established faction to participate.

[DM SummerBreeze]

DM plots and Events though are not always (possibly not even usually) spontaneous and do not simply fall into a lap out of nowhere.

Oh boy, thats actually like 70% of how I start stuff up. I choose an area and just go for it, regardless of which players are actually there. Unexpected can be fun. I rarely make specific date/times to do stuff other than if a player requests it specifically. Otherwise usually you wont see me coming

[yyj]

I think the focus is wrong, a player should try to engage and roleplay with the community closely to get involved in plots and things. I already made an earlier post on how to get DM events, people disagreed with me while not taking the points I made into consideration.

A player should ask themselves:

"What am I doing for my roleplaying to be engaging and inclusive with others? What am I doing to help other players develop their own character and story through mine? What am I doing to make the gameworld feel true to the setting and the unique server lore that we have? What am I doing to help out the DMs tell a story? " and so on...

The collaborative storytelling is a lot of work and sometimes disagreements are had, but the important thing is to keep a positive attitude towards things and talk with others about what you want to achieve.

Personal plots are just a no go, we have a small number of DMs and a lot of players, trust me, DMs do a lot of work to make sure a lot of players are involved in the plots and for that I am thankful.

I invite everyone reading this thread to ask themselves the questions I mentioned earlier in this post and to reflect on it and how answering those questions can help you get involved in plots and engage with fellow players in a positive manner for everyone.

With that, I will see myself out of this thread as I have nothing else to say on the matter.


P.d.
The DM team is growing but for more than 200 active players (around that number) you have to be realistic that sometimes you will not see DMs online simply because of numbers. Be patient. Create your own fun, and have realistic expectations, people get busy in real life sometimes and being a DM is also playing the game just like another player so have considerations.

[Tanlaus]

DM plots and Events though are not always (possibly not even usually) spontaneous and do not simply fall into a lap out of nowhere.

Oh boy, thats actually like 70% of how I start stuff up. I choose an area and just go for it, regardless of which players are actually there. Unexpected can be fun. I rarely make specific date/times to do stuff other than if a player requests it specifically. Otherwise usually you wont see me coming

Some of my favorite times in this server was when I was running around with my friends and All Father (still an ADM at the time) would randomly throw stuff at us out of nowhere.

Also recently had a great experience in the UD with some random NPCs showing up during a fight in Oghrann’s and some ensuing RP afterwards.

I fully support your ‘throw it out there and go’ attitude

[Glowfire]

I have to say I think this is an excellent discussion and one I'd like to see made a sticky or moved to Roleplaying Guides or somewhere appropriate where it doesn't get buried.


Something to consider, regarding perception... There's times you won't know at all when some factions or characters are involved in events. Secretive Zhentarim, Harper and Thieves Guild events are never made public and the guilds have done a pretty good job of being silent on those. I imagine there's other guilds/groups/PCs like that out there too but those are the ones I've had personal experience of.

There's more events happening than you hear about.

There'll always be people who feel like they don't get to partake as much, that's just natural with the numbers of players compared to DMs. DM burnout is real, too. Keeping a positive attitude and seeking to nurture a fun RP environment outside DM events is something I'll always advise people.


Some food for thought...
Don't take it personal or OOC if a character doesn't invite/welcome your character to an event. Maybe there's a certain rumour going around about your character, they're not trusted enough, or there's a limited amount of slots for that event and they're filled up... I've had to decline people from joining events, sometimes ICly threatening them to cease following the group due to the nature of it - when there's been weeks of IC preparations with important information and instruction leading to an event finale - using a DM's limited time to explain all of that doesn't make sense. It's IC for a PC to be concerned about sabotage and subterfuge and try to take measures against it. Events are IC.

Plots involve so much more than the actual event itself with the DM present. Build-up and RP around it, RP about it afterwards too with those who weren't present.

To me forum RP is really a bridge between an online PW and table top. In a table top game nothing happens without the DM knowing it. On a PW most of what happens happens without a DM being aware. Forums are a way of making them aware. And can also be kind of fun. Not that you can or should expect a response to every post but it is something that I believe (and correct me if I’m wrong) is appreciated in both sides of the player/dm divide.

I would like it to work this way. Forum admins for respective factions need to make sure the DMs in question have access to their forums. DMs cannot automatically read faction posts (perhaps by design so they don't get IC spoilers from opposing factions for their PCs). Otherwise we're sending PMs to the DM responsible for the plot, which sometimes seems hit or miss. I just spent a while trying to tame my inbox and I've still got a long way to go.

Forum RP is great if you have a faction with time zones all over the world. It gives them a chance to respond and participate even if you barely see people in game.

In the past at least... DMs have had access to all guild forums. ADMs haven't and needed to be added individually after checking if it's OK (though I know some guilds just added all ADMs instead of singling anyone out).


If you make a post on the forums related to a DM's plot - send the post link in a PM to the DM with the name of the plot as the subject. Even if you're not actually looking for feedback, keeping the DM in the loop about their plot progress is usually appreciated.